Irons
Well-known member
That fluffy copper isn't totally worthless. It makes a good reducing agent to scrub dilute solutions of PGMs.
Copper sulphate cell
- Thread starter samuel-a
- Start date
Help Support Gold Refining Forum:
samuel-a
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2009
- Messages
- 2,190
hi goran
you are correct about the target of that process, which is to recover the gold on 1st priority, and the copper at 2nd.
the copper deposites are far from perfect, but on the other hand, it does not hurt the cell functionality, and the cathod need's to be cleand every 2 hours or so in order for the deposits won't fall off the cathod and swing arount in the containers bottom.
even though it is a bit more labor, it doesn't hurt, a few secunds of cleanup each time.
wether i have zinc in the solution or not, as far as i know from the internet only, nothing will plate out on copper but copper at any given voltage, but this is not confirmed.
the anode lost about 30%-35% by now after about 36-40 operating hours.
so far it's functioning ok.
the fluffy copper (like irons said) can be used for inquarting or recover of PM's from very dirty pregnant solution or to precipitate silver from silver nitrate solution, or to be melted and sold for No.1 copper.
you are correct about the target of that process, which is to recover the gold on 1st priority, and the copper at 2nd.
the copper deposites are far from perfect, but on the other hand, it does not hurt the cell functionality, and the cathod need's to be cleand every 2 hours or so in order for the deposits won't fall off the cathod and swing arount in the containers bottom.
even though it is a bit more labor, it doesn't hurt, a few secunds of cleanup each time.
wether i have zinc in the solution or not, as far as i know from the internet only, nothing will plate out on copper but copper at any given voltage, but this is not confirmed.
the anode lost about 30%-35% by now after about 36-40 operating hours.
so far it's functioning ok.
the fluffy copper (like irons said) can be used for inquarting or recover of PM's from very dirty pregnant solution or to precipitate silver from silver nitrate solution, or to be melted and sold for No.1 copper.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Copper sludge is salable, I have found local scrap yard that will buy it.
No need to trough it away, I am sure that with the price of metals you can also find someone local to buy, they may want to reserve payment until they get paid, did that once then I am trusted.
They also are buying copper grindings off of boards from me.
I made a rig like a thickness planer to run the sheared off boards through
yielding powdered copper with some solder.
Jim
No need to trough it away, I am sure that with the price of metals you can also find someone local to buy, they may want to reserve payment until they get paid, did that once then I am trusted.
They also are buying copper grindings off of boards from me.
I made a rig like a thickness planer to run the sheared off boards through
yielding powdered copper with some solder.
Jim
samuel-a
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2009
- Messages
- 2,190
the oparating status of the test cell:
- a 500ml solution of 5% sulfuric acid was preperd (later i added more acid to match GPS comments)
- the copper sulfate concentration was not pre-determined by me, i just let the electrolyte set the % of copper to be dissolved at any given time.
- 1 drop of HCL
- anode:cathod ratio was about 1:1, with a colecting dish under the anode
- operating power: 5V , 1A (max)
as i mentioned erlier, the primary goal it to extract the gold , well, as you can see in the photo below, most of it is in the collecting dish.
as the anode surface area gradually got smaller the dissolution got faster, but also relesed spongy chuncks of copper (metalic) from the anode (see photo).
therefore, an anode bag or even maybe dialysis membrane should be used for a collecting element.
with the use of a collecting bag, the cathod doesn't even have to be cleaned, and one can leave the copper to sludge off the cathod to the bottom of the cell.
the sludge in the collecting dish ware washed 3x with water, then 2x with HCL, again water , and then HCL+Cl.
gold content confirmed.
the yield is not measurable (only 50 grams of pins) and not as important as proving the theory.
if i'll tray it again i'll definitely do it on a larger scale and according to GSP recommendations.
thank you all for your help and comments.
any further questions and comments are wellcomed.
- a 500ml solution of 5% sulfuric acid was preperd (later i added more acid to match GPS comments)
- the copper sulfate concentration was not pre-determined by me, i just let the electrolyte set the % of copper to be dissolved at any given time.
- 1 drop of HCL
- anode:cathod ratio was about 1:1, with a colecting dish under the anode
- operating power: 5V , 1A (max)
as i mentioned erlier, the primary goal it to extract the gold , well, as you can see in the photo below, most of it is in the collecting dish.
as the anode surface area gradually got smaller the dissolution got faster, but also relesed spongy chuncks of copper (metalic) from the anode (see photo).
therefore, an anode bag or even maybe dialysis membrane should be used for a collecting element.
with the use of a collecting bag, the cathod doesn't even have to be cleaned, and one can leave the copper to sludge off the cathod to the bottom of the cell.
the sludge in the collecting dish ware washed 3x with water, then 2x with HCL, again water , and then HCL+Cl.
gold content confirmed.
the yield is not measurable (only 50 grams of pins) and not as important as proving the theory.
if i'll tray it again i'll definitely do it on a larger scale and according to GSP recommendations.
thank you all for your help and comments.
any further questions and comments are wellcomed.
MountainMike
Member
What have you found to be the most effective way to use this "fluffy copper" on dilute solutions? ~mIrons said:
HAuCl4
Well-known member
Doesn't this electrolysis take far too long and cost too much compared to stripping with cyanide as per GSP instructions?. This seems viable only for someone that runs a copper cell already for whatever reason and the gold recovered is a bonus. Yes/No/maybe?.
The copper fluff in big quantities can be melt into a bar as well using a crucible with some charcoal powder as oxidation protection. One could inquart with it as well.
The copper fluff in big quantities can be melt into a bar as well using a crucible with some charcoal powder as oxidation protection. One could inquart with it as well.
MountainMike
Member
In designing a larger cell, it seems most anodes are somewhat like 4Metals has listed above. So, using those measurements would the cathode be .5 X 1.5 X 18, to arrive at the 2:1 ratio (a:c), and if that then what would be the current density? ~m4metals said:
MountainMike
Member
I would appreciate some feedback about building a copper sulphate cell.
I have found a plastic type laundry sink at Lowes Building Supplies. It measures 25 x 22 (front) x 23 (depth) on metal legs to give a total heighth of 34". It is made by Swanstone and holds 22 gallons. What do you think about that as the plating tank?
I envision using 2 anodes and 3 cathodes (maybe more electrodes later) using the Moebius system. My thought is to bag both the anodes and cathodes (to contain the "fluffy" copper). What would be some suggestions on the size of the anodes and cathodes? I have a 80 amp. rectifier. I also would like some suggestions on best spacing of the electrodes. Your input is needed and appreciated. ~m
ps: I have very limited interest in the copper. A "good plate" is immaterial. The primary interest of course is the "slimes".
I have found a plastic type laundry sink at Lowes Building Supplies. It measures 25 x 22 (front) x 23 (depth) on metal legs to give a total heighth of 34". It is made by Swanstone and holds 22 gallons. What do you think about that as the plating tank?
I envision using 2 anodes and 3 cathodes (maybe more electrodes later) using the Moebius system. My thought is to bag both the anodes and cathodes (to contain the "fluffy" copper). What would be some suggestions on the size of the anodes and cathodes? I have a 80 amp. rectifier. I also would like some suggestions on best spacing of the electrodes. Your input is needed and appreciated. ~m
ps: I have very limited interest in the copper. A "good plate" is immaterial. The primary interest of course is the "slimes".
GrailSeeker
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2010
- Messages
- 46
Try to use thick plastic gloves when handling DC, especially with minerals in. Had you been working with a few hundrends of mAmps would be ok, but here we are talking about whole 2-3 A. If you eventually short yourself somehow, effects may vary from a small pinch to an electric shock.
DC = CAUTION
DC = CAUTION
MountainMike
Member
Thank you for the safety reminder, It just takes once sometimes. I have the gloves you referenced and I have some plastic raised flooring that should help keep me from grounding myself. My practice will be to turn off the rectifier when making adjustments and harvesting. ~m
Barren Realms 007
In Remembrance
GrailSeeker said:
A few milliamp across the heart at the right moment can stop the heart.
GrailSeeker
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2010
- Messages
- 46
The heart can be resuscitated with an equal amount of shock provided that someone is nearby. Fractured tissue cells cannot. One can bleed to death. So :!: CAUTION :!:
MountainMike
Member
Remember this saying... One rule is keep one hand in your pocket while doing with the other, thus preventing current flow across your chest, and thus your heart. ... ~m
I just spent a lot of time on the internet searching for electrical safety information when using low voltage D.C. current. By low voltage, I mean in the range of 2-8V, the typical voltage range used in electroplating, electrowinning, or electrorefining. I didn't have much luck. In one place, they said that anything under 42 VDC was safe. Another said 24VDC. I found no definitive answer.
I was in the plating industry for 10 yrs and have probably spent time in several 100 plating shops. Many of the plating operations in these shops used 1000ADC, or more, but most only used from 3 to 6VDC. Since then, I owned 2 plating shops and I have setup and run many, many electrolytic metal recovery and refining systems. For example, the standard 30 gal. silver cells I have used all my life operated at 250ADC @ 3-4VDC. In my life, I never heard of anyone being hurt or even being shocked from any of these low voltage DC systems. The safety emphasis was always on chemicals and never on the DC electrical setup. Although I never thought much about it, I'm sure that many times I have touched both the anode and cathode, at the same time, and never got as much as a slight tingle.
Please note that I am only talking about the DC output. The AC input is another story.
The reason I bring this up is that the present discussion could frighten novices into not attempting to use these low voltage DC electrolytic systems. If there is, or is not, a danger, it should be addressed.
Does anyone, with genuine knowledge about this subject, have a definitive answer to all this? All I have is 45 years of experience working with these DC power supplies. Like I said, I just never thought about it since it never seemed to be a problem.
I was in the plating industry for 10 yrs and have probably spent time in several 100 plating shops. Many of the plating operations in these shops used 1000ADC, or more, but most only used from 3 to 6VDC. Since then, I owned 2 plating shops and I have setup and run many, many electrolytic metal recovery and refining systems. For example, the standard 30 gal. silver cells I have used all my life operated at 250ADC @ 3-4VDC. In my life, I never heard of anyone being hurt or even being shocked from any of these low voltage DC systems. The safety emphasis was always on chemicals and never on the DC electrical setup. Although I never thought much about it, I'm sure that many times I have touched both the anode and cathode, at the same time, and never got as much as a slight tingle.
Please note that I am only talking about the DC output. The AC input is another story.
The reason I bring this up is that the present discussion could frighten novices into not attempting to use these low voltage DC electrolytic systems. If there is, or is not, a danger, it should be addressed.
Does anyone, with genuine knowledge about this subject, have a definitive answer to all this? All I have is 45 years of experience working with these DC power supplies. Like I said, I just never thought about it since it never seemed to be a problem.
GrailSeeker
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2010
- Messages
- 46
GSP,
Voltage difference between two points is the cause, current flow from one point to the other is the effect.
Insulate the parts of your body that are exposed to physical contact with conductive material at all times. don't do this bare-foot and usually stand on insulated material.
The main point is that you simply cannot keep in mind all parameters that affect current flow. If you draw too much of it you might burn a fuse or your charger, but never would you want to be the part of the circuit.
Every person is a different case of conductor material. There is too much to write about.
I don't see anything wrong with pointing out the obvious. Gloves and work well within the device's ratings.
Voltage difference between two points is the cause, current flow from one point to the other is the effect.
Insulate the parts of your body that are exposed to physical contact with conductive material at all times. don't do this bare-foot and usually stand on insulated material.
The main point is that you simply cannot keep in mind all parameters that affect current flow. If you draw too much of it you might burn a fuse or your charger, but never would you want to be the part of the circuit.
Every person is a different case of conductor material. There is too much to write about.
I don't see anything wrong with pointing out the obvious. Gloves and work well within the device's ratings.
I was all wet one time in a metal shute, at a saw mill, welding bars in the big chain and felt some pretty good "tingles".
Got the job done though.
Was probably running around 120 to 150 amps.
Not sure about the voltage, but I am guessing around 35v.
Got the job done though.
Was probably running around 120 to 150 amps.
Not sure about the voltage, but I am guessing around 35v.
jimdoc
Well-known member
My father was an electric technician and he told me he always respected both AC and DC.I guess it is safer to think like that, and not get a surprise.
Especially a deadly surprise.
Jim
Especially a deadly surprise.
Jim
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2007
- Messages
- 8,360
The amperage potential of a circuit doesn't make a difference so long as resistance is high enough, which it is with the human body. In order for enough amperage to flow to a critical level, voltage must be increased. I would expect that anything under 50V would be perfectly safe to handle, although you might feel a tingle at the higher end.
Hold a 9V battery with a finger bridging both terminals. You feel nothing. Touch the same terminals to your tongue (much lower resistance) and you feel a shock.
It's been years since I took an electricity class (1955, in fact), but as I recall Ohm's law, it takes 1 volt to push one amp through one ohm of resistance.
Using my Triplett model 630 PL meter, I just measured anywhere from 230,000 to 550,000 ohms of resistance between my two hands. The difference was in how much surface skin surface I exposed to the probes.
The human body is not a good conductor of electricity, therefore a high voltage is required to transfer enough amperage to be lethal (it is amperage that kills, not voltage). That voltage would vary, of course, depending on many conditions, but it should be safe for the average guy to handle low voltages without worry.
Harold
Hold a 9V battery with a finger bridging both terminals. You feel nothing. Touch the same terminals to your tongue (much lower resistance) and you feel a shock.
It's been years since I took an electricity class (1955, in fact), but as I recall Ohm's law, it takes 1 volt to push one amp through one ohm of resistance.
Using my Triplett model 630 PL meter, I just measured anywhere from 230,000 to 550,000 ohms of resistance between my two hands. The difference was in how much surface skin surface I exposed to the probes.
The human body is not a good conductor of electricity, therefore a high voltage is required to transfer enough amperage to be lethal (it is amperage that kills, not voltage). That voltage would vary, of course, depending on many conditions, but it should be safe for the average guy to handle low voltages without worry.
Harold
