Reducing Silver Chloride

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This and many others I have found very informational!!

I am reading much every day and just trying to understand it. Several, like this one, I have come back to many times, I never seem to get it all the first time. I will just keep recovering the "easy" stuff, saving the more complicated, and studying, while gathering the needed tools and chemicals. Eventually, I will take a shot at the refining aspect of it.

Thanks to all those who contribute the information found here.
 
Harold_V said:
I'm open to questions if you have any.
Thank you. Do you recall the dimensions? You mentioned the anode was about 9" square.
Did you calculate the cathode surface area?
 
Tub Buster said:
Harold_V said:
I'm open to questions if you have any.
Thank you. Do you recall the dimensions? You mentioned the anode was about 9" square.
Did you calculate the cathode surface area?
I don't recall the dimensions, but they are not critical. The only pertinent considerations are the anode size and anode/cathode spacing. Even spacing isn't critical, as you'll overcome pretty much any issues (unless you don't have enough spacing) by varying voltage. If memory serves, the target voltage is what it takes to achieve 25 amps/square foot of anode. I chose to operate lower (about 15 amps/square foot), which provided a longer interval between times knocking down the crystals. I ran my cell steady, 24 hours, until I had processed all silver at the ready. I often ran it for a couple months steady.

You'd be best served to procure a copy of the book written by Butts & Coxe, which discusses silver cells and silver processing extensively. I do not recall the title, but do a search and it will be obvious.

Food for thought. The typical electrolyte consists of some copper in solution. I chose to use none, as it was introduced fast enough simply by running the cell, as silver recovered by cementation with copper will always contain traces of copper.

You may read that the lack of copper alters the deposit, which is true---but the reports made by at least of of those who didn't use copper free electrolyte are not correct. I parted tens of thousands of ounces of silver, always starting with pure silver electrolyte. My reason was simple. I got more silver from each lot processed, because the amount of copper in solution is what limits the useful life of electrolyte. The net result (ALWAYS) of not including copper at the outset was a film of solidly adhering silver--not crystals. That was followed by the formation of dense crystals, as the copper content rose. When content was high enough, the crystals, which had previously been rigidly fastened to the cell, now were very easy to remove. Continued operation caused a further rise in copper content, at which time the deposited silver began growing as thin threads. This reaction was characteristic of all my runs, so I had to conclude that copper aids in the stripping of crystals, but should not be allowed to accumulate beyond reasonable limits, as once it's too high, copper co-deposits with the silver, just as palladium will if it accumulates in the system. Armed with this thought, the moment thin threads started forming, I cleaned out the cell and replaced the electrolyte. I also started with a new anode, which was simply placed on top of what remained of the previous anode. As a measure of purity, I'd use the last silver harvested to make the next electrolyte. If it was free of blue coloration, I knew the silver was not contaminated with copper.

I recommend no less than 2" clearance from the anode surface to any surfaces of the cathode. The more you provide, the longer the cell can operate without attention. It is very important that crystals not be allowed to grow near the anode basket, as the resulting arcing will perforate the filter and contaminate the already processed silver.

What I recommend, if you're interested in parting silver, is to study until you understand the principles involved, then make a setup and pursue the operation of the cell. Consider your first run a learning experience, and that you may make mistakes. It's easy enough to re-process the resulting silver, which can be as simple as placing the harvested crystals back in the anode basket, even without melting.

Harold
 
Thank you Harold, this has been a great read and learn post.

And Thanks FrugalRefiner for the book title.

I still need more study before trying this, but it has went a long ways toward understanding how it all works.

Edit: correct spelling
 
http://www.abebooks.com/Silver-Economics-Metallurgy-Use-Butts-Allison/9130619157/bd
http://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/author/BUTTS,-ALLISON;-COXE,-CHARLES-D-?cm_sp=brcr-_-bdp-_-author
 
Harold_V said:
Wash your silver chloride well, until the wash water is clear, with no traces of color. You can do that with tap water. Make at least one of the washes with hot water, to dissolve any lead nitrate that might be present. If you make that wash the last, or second to last wash, you'll notice that the silver chloride will settle almost instantly, so you can decant while the solution is still hot. Lead nitrate will self precipitate when the solution cools, defeating the purpose for the hot wash.

I used a thick-walled Pyrex container for the conversion. There's enough heat generated that your chloride can achieve boiling temperature, so don't use glass that won't tolerate heat. Don't do this indoors unless you have a fume hood. There's a considerable amount of gas and vapor liberated in the process.

Place your chloride in the container, and cover it with a 10% solution of HCL and water (tap water is fine). A large diameter container with a shallow layer of chloride is best. You need room to stir. If you have access to scrap sheet aluminum, it works best, for it presents a large surface area to the chloride, and is easily recovered when the operation is complete. Smallish pieces that can be stirred work well, for you have to expose all of the chloride to the aluminum. Avoid tiny pieces that would be difficult to remove when the process is finished.

At first, the chloride will have a tendency to stick to the aluminum, but as it all converts to elemental silver, you'll find that the aluminum will shed it totally. The aluminum goes into solution in this process, so expect it to dissolve as it works. Make certain that the chloride has converted to gray (silver) and there's still some aluminum left. At that point the aluminum will bubble, being dissolved by the HCL, and will be very clean, but there is, otherwise, no action. When you're convinced the chloride has all been converted, remove the rest of the aluminum, checking any place that yields bubbles for small pieces that may be left behind. It's not a bad idea to add a little free HCL after you remove the aluminum, which will insure that the silver is well washed, and will expose any tiny pieces of aluminum that may be left behind. Allow things to sit for a few minutes. If there's any aluminum left behind, you'll see bubbles coming from the location. When you're sure you have all the aluminum, fill the container with tap water and allow it to settle. The solution will appear to be about the same color as the silver, and you'll swear there's silver in suspension, but that is not the case. Allow it to settle for a day, then decant the solution and repeat the wash. The wash will slowly come clear, but it takes a few repetitions. Once the solution is fairly clear, it will filter well, but the dark solution won't go through a filter worth a damn, so don't try filtering until you've washed the silver a few times.

My policy was to place the well washed silver in a Buchner funnel, where the balance of the solution could be removed and the silver compacted well for drying. It's a lot easier to handle the stuff after it's been compacted. I would then dump the Buchner contents into a large evaporating dish to force dry the silver over a low flame. The silver that comes from this conversion is very fine grained and sticky. It melts well once dry, but flux (borax, without soda ash) is a definite asset. The flux should be saved for future re-processing. It could contain traces of unconverted silver chloride, and possibly some prills. Soda ash would convert the chloride traces to elemental silver, but it would also convert traces of base metal oxides should they be present, so I avoided using it. All depends on your objective. If the silver is headed for a silver parting cell, the cleaner the silver, the longer the electrolyte will be viable. How you'll use the silver will determine how to flux. If you use it for inquartation, over and over, use some soda ash in your flux. You'll achieve a 100% recovery (of chlorides) that way.

Hope I've covered it well enough for you to proceed. It will take only one attempt at the process for all of this to make sense.

Harold
Зато , добавление соды в шихту с порошковым серебром переводит ненавистную метаоловянную кислоту (SnO2*nH2O) в станнат. Насчёт восстановления оксидов я не вкурсе, но они растворятся в буре. Разве оксиды содой восстанавливаются?
Можно и к золоту в шихту добавлять соду, всё в той же борьбе с оловом. По моему, хуже от этого не становится. Я так делаю.Harold_V
 
I Googled the above and it translated to:

But, the addition of soda to the charge powder silver translates hated metaolovyannuyu acid (SnO2 * nH2O) in stannate. About the reduction of the oxides vkurse I do not, but they will be dissolved in the storm. Is soda oxides recovered?
Possible and to gold in the batch add soda, all in the same struggle with tin. In my opinion, worse this becomes. I delayu.Harold_V

But I am still having trouble understanding exactly what it is saying.
 
OK,
сода is Na2CO3 or NaHCO3,
метаоловянная кислота is SnO2*nH2O
в буре in borax.

Сода add to Ag (and AgCl) is good, and сода kill tin. :mrgreen:
 
Еvery time I add Sodium carbonate to silver powder. It's good. Sodium carbonate removes tin and recover silver chloride to silver.
Sodium carbonate not recover oxides. Charcoal recover oxides. Borax dissolved oxides.
Sodium carbonate or sodium bicarbonate.

Sodium carbonate also add to gold powder, when melting, that removes tin.
 
Ok I understand now you are talking about melting the metals with flux.

Silver chloride can burn off as smoke in a melt, to keep from loosing silver we can use flux to reduce it to metal.

If we melt silver chloride we need to reduce the silver in the melt, we can use sodium carbonate and charcoal.

But these reducing fluxes can also reduce other metals in the melt.

Tin can oxidize fairly easily, but with carbon or sodium carbonate in the flux, the tin can be reduced to metal.

Sodium carbonate and charcoal are reducing fluxes, basically they can take oxides from metals like tin oxide (that would normally go into the slag glass), and reduce the tin oxide back to metal in the melt.

To get a metal to go into the slag of the melt we want to oxidize the metal.

But in this case we need sodium carbonate and charcoal to keep our silver as metal, and so we can also reduce tin metal with our silver in this flux melt.

It would be best to separate as much tin from the silver as possible with our acids and processing before it is melted.

With gold we could more easily oxidize some of the tin out with an oxidizing flux in a smelt.

But here again if we can get the tin separated from the gold by other means it would be much better, before melting the gold.
 
Sometimes dirty scrap, sodium carbonate helps. Do not add charcoal. Sodium carbonate not reduce the tin oxide back to metal in the melt. Tin dioxide+sodium carbonate in the melt => sodium stannate. Sodium stannate soluble in water.
 
I am no chemist.
This is just my thoughts

sodium carbonate as far as I know in a melt is somewhat neutral, it can normally act as a weak reducing agent taking oxides from metal oxides.

sodium carbonate is considered a basic and non oxidizing flux, but can become an oxidizing if an oxidizer is added, even oxygen from a torch or furnace where air can be absorbed into the melt can make the melt with sodium carbonate more oxidizing.

This is one reason why a carbon powder cover over a melt of silver chloride powders mixed with sodium carbonate is a good idea to help reduce the silver chloride to silver, the carbon can help to act as a reducing agent, and help absorb oxides or help to lower oxygen being absorbed into the melt.

In a melt with an oxidizer added and sodium carbonate we can oxidize the metal more easily.
In a melt with a stronger reducing agent (like carbon) we can reduce a metal with the sodium carbonate in a flux melt.
We can make the melt with sodium carbonate an oxidizer or a reducing agent with the other ingredients in our flux.

stannic oxide in a fusion with a strong base like NaOH will give a stannate, which is soluble in water.
(its melting point is below silver). (This fusion can be done in a silver dish as long as the silver dish is protected from the flames of the torch).
2SnO2 + 2NaOH --fusion--> Na2SnO3
Dissolving this sodium stannate Na2SnO3 in water gives Na2Sn(OH)6 (aq)

stannic oxide is not completely attacked by a fusion with sodium carbonate (alone).


sodium stannate Na2SnO3 can be formed in a fusion with SnO2 with sodium carbonate and with sodium nitrate added in the fusion.

SnO2 stannic oxide in a melt with sodium carbonate and carbon can reduce the tin oxide to tin metal.
 
Try it and see better with soda.
Stannates, aluminates &etc. receive not only with sodium hydroxide, but also with soda. Saltpeter+
I almost dissolved catalyst car. But, a lot of dirt. And expensive way.
 
Found little information. Sodium oxide obtained by sodium carbonate calcination. Tin oxide reacts with the alkali metal oxides.
246f1e43e792dc04dc89ccdd8b61e2d1.jpg

Na2CO3 → Na2O+CO2↑ (1000°C)
Na2O+SnO2=Na2SnO3
 
NeMonstr said:
Harold_V said:
Wash your silver chloride well, until the wash water is clear, with no traces of color. You can do that with tap water. Make at least one of the washes with hot water, to dissolve any lead nitrate that might be present. If you make that wash the last, or second to last wash, you'll notice that the silver chloride will settle almost instantly, so you can decant while the solution is still hot. Lead nitrate will self precipitate when the solution cools, defeating the purpose for the hot wash.

I used a thick-walled Pyrex container for the conversion. There's enough heat generated that your chloride can achieve boiling temperature, so don't use glass that won't tolerate heat. Don't do this indoors unless you have a fume hood. There's a considerable amount of gas and vapor liberated in the process.

Place your chloride in the container, and cover it with a 10% solution of HCL and water (tap water is fine). A large diameter container with a shallow layer of chloride is best. You need room to stir. If you have access to scrap sheet aluminum, it works best, for it presents a large surface area to the chloride, and is easily recovered when the operation is complete. Smallish pieces that can be stirred work well, for you have to expose all of the chloride to the aluminum. Avoid tiny pieces that would be difficult to remove when the process is finished.

At first, the chloride will have a tendency to stick to the aluminum, but as it all converts to elemental silver, you'll find that the aluminum will shed it totally. The aluminum goes into solution in this process, so expect it to dissolve as it works. Make certain that the chloride has converted to gray (silver) and there's still some aluminum left. At that point the aluminum will bubble, being dissolved by the HCL, and will be very clean, but there is, otherwise, no action. When you're convinced the chloride has all been converted, remove the rest of the aluminum, checking any place that yields bubbles for small pieces that may be left behind. It's not a bad idea to add a little free HCL after you remove the aluminum, which will insure that the silver is well washed, and will expose any tiny pieces of aluminum that may be left behind. Allow things to sit for a few minutes. If there's any aluminum left behind, you'll see bubbles coming from the location. When you're sure you have all the aluminum, fill the container with tap water and allow it to settle. The solution will appear to be about the same color as the silver, and you'll swear there's silver in suspension, but that is not the case. Allow it to settle for a day, then decant the solution and repeat the wash. The wash will slowly come clear, but it takes a few repetitions. Once the solution is fairly clear, it will filter well, but the dark solution won't go through a filter worth a damn, so don't try filtering until you've washed the silver a few times.

My policy was to place the well washed silver in a Buchner funnel, where the balance of the solution could be removed and the silver compacted well for drying. It's a lot easier to handle the stuff after it's been compacted. I would then dump the Buchner contents into a large evaporating dish to force dry the silver over a low flame. The silver that comes from this conversion is very fine grained and sticky. It melts well once dry, but flux (borax, without soda ash) is a definite asset. The flux should be saved for future re-processing. It could contain traces of unconverted silver chloride, and possibly some prills. Soda ash would convert the chloride traces to elemental silver, but it would also convert traces of base metal oxides should they be present, so I avoided using it. All depends on your objective. If the silver is headed for a silver parting cell, the cleaner the silver, the longer the electrolyte will be viable. How you'll use the silver will determine how to flux. If you use it for inquartation, over and over, use some soda ash in your flux. You'll achieve a 100% recovery (of chlorides) that way.

Hope I've covered it well enough for you to proceed. It will take only one attempt at the process for all of this to make sense.

Harold
Зато , добавление соды в шихту с порошковым серебром переводит ненавистную метаоловянную кислоту (SnO2*nH2O) в станнат. Насчёт восстановления оксидов я не вкурсе, но они растворятся в буре. Разве оксиды содой восстанавливаются?
Можно и к золоту в шихту добавлять соду, всё в той же борьбе с оловом. По моему, хуже от этого не становится. Я так делаю.Harold_V


Not sure about translating but the HCL and aluminum worked amazingly well! I will add that the reaction is extremely exothermic! I believe that is the correct term to use. IT GOT EXTREMELY HOT! Almost to hot to hold at one point. My batch is drying right now get ready to melt. It's a nice cool 60 degrees Fahrenheit here and the heat coming out of the glass made me wish I had a slightly longer stir rod.

My next big project will be a fume hood to operate in the winter.
 
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