edsikes
Well-known member
. i have been told that acetic acid will break down the silver oxide as well does this actually work? has anyone tried it to any effect?
All about silver button batteries
- Thread starter Juan Manuel Arcos Frank
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edsikes
Well-known member
ok so i received a reply to my post. thank you manuel for the answers!
apparently acetic acid will break down the silver oxide. but WONT break down the metallic silver also found in the battery nitric is needed for that so it makes more sense to just use nitric and have it all done in one shot
apparently acetic acid will break down the silver oxide. but WONT break down the metallic silver also found in the battery nitric is needed for that so it makes more sense to just use nitric and have it all done in one shot
MarcoP
Well-known member
I've probably got my hands on a regular supply of mixed watch batteries and now I have two newbie questions.
Reading Manuel's document it says to use enough nitric to dissolve only AgO2/Ag, an excess would instead dissolve even the Fe/Ni casing. But with my little knowledge I've learned that more reactive metals like Iron and Nickel will dissolve before the less reactive Ag thus leaving me perplexed. How come, here, AgO2/Ag will dissolve before Iron and Nickel and not cementing back on them?
The other question I have in mind is how much per kilo, or per pound, would you be willing to pay for a batch of only silver oxide batteries? In mind I had about €40 per kilo (about $20USD per pound), am I too tight, too generous or about right in my calculation?
Reading Manuel's document it says to use enough nitric to dissolve only AgO2/Ag, an excess would instead dissolve even the Fe/Ni casing. But with my little knowledge I've learned that more reactive metals like Iron and Nickel will dissolve before the less reactive Ag thus leaving me perplexed. How come, here, AgO2/Ag will dissolve before Iron and Nickel and not cementing back on them?
The other question I have in mind is how much per kilo, or per pound, would you be willing to pay for a batch of only silver oxide batteries? In mind I had about €40 per kilo (about $20USD per pound), am I too tight, too generous or about right in my calculation?
MarcoP
Well-known member
I hate bumping but it seems that posted content during determinate hours doesn't show up in the new posts list in time for the majority to read it.
Could anyone answer the first of my questions above please? Don't really care about the second one because everyone costs may be different...
Thanks in advance.
Could anyone answer the first of my questions above please? Don't really care about the second one because everyone costs may be different...
Thanks in advance.
solar_plasma
Well-known member
It is Ag2O, not AgO2.
In Ag2O the silver doesn't need to be oxidized, it is monovalent and stays monovalent if dissolved in HNO3 and it should readily dissolve. Surely faster than the massive metals, which have to be oxidized and have a smaller surface exposed to the acid. For the rest of your question I can't give an answer and I participate your confusion.
I can only raise a new question: Is it only because of the exposed surface? This would make sense, if both the Ag2O AND the Ag are in the shape of fine powder or porous. Waiting too long Fe and Ni would start to oxidize and reduce Ag+ back to Ag0.
In Ag2O the silver doesn't need to be oxidized, it is monovalent and stays monovalent if dissolved in HNO3 and it should readily dissolve. Surely faster than the massive metals, which have to be oxidized and have a smaller surface exposed to the acid. For the rest of your question I can't give an answer and I participate your confusion.
I can only raise a new question: Is it only because of the exposed surface? This would make sense, if both the Ag2O AND the Ag are in the shape of fine powder or porous. Waiting too long Fe and Ni would start to oxidize and reduce Ag+ back to Ag0.
My guess is that the silver oxide batteries are made of stainless steel. Stainless steel is resistant to nitric acid, nitric is an oxidizing acid and the stainless steel is covered in a thin surface of oxides that shuts the acid out, it passivizes the surface of the metal so it doesn't dissolve.
I don't have any yield numbers as the few button cells I have is not enough to do any serious statistics with.
Göran
I don't have any yield numbers as the few button cells I have is not enough to do any serious statistics with.
Göran
solar_plasma
Well-known member
https://www.google.com/patents/WO2011113903A1?cl=de
This patent tells both of them can be used: stainless steel or any nickel coated deep-drawable steel. Maybe both explanations are true.
This patent tells both of them can be used: stainless steel or any nickel coated deep-drawable steel. Maybe both explanations are true.
jungle_Dave
Well-known member
The Cathode is a pressed disk Ag20 with layers of KOH (NaOH) to form the positive charge,
Ag20 + H20 +2e --> 2Ag + 2OH..
Any mercury would be in the zinc anode if I am not mistaken.
The cathode is the only part of the battery that's interesting on a small scale, How are people cutting the batteries?
Thanks
Ag20 + H20 +2e --> 2Ag + 2OH..
Any mercury would be in the zinc anode if I am not mistaken.
The cathode is the only part of the battery that's interesting on a small scale, How are people cutting the batteries?
Thanks
jungle_Dave
Well-known member
Just did my first batch!
After reading everything on this post, doing some outside research and a few experiments I took a 75 gr sample of the kg or so I have on hand of 100% confirmed silver oxide batteries .
I opened the lip of the battery with a pliers / wire cutter combination.
1) I places these exposed batteries in a water bath, in 24 hours this solution turned a brown tan color.
a) ph tested the water as found it was very alkaline.
2) filtered the leach solution and saved the the brown sludge and black particles.
3 ) washed the batteries again 2 times and tested the rinse until it was in the normal range.
4) I left 100 ml of water in an 1500 ml flask ( just enough to cover the batteries) added 300 ml of nitric acid (52%) in 5 stages.
This produced more fumes then I expected, but was able able to vent it safely.
5) once the nitric acid stopped reacting I decanted the solution to 600 ml of water, this produced a very blue solution with hints of green. I was left with the battery casings and some black powder which I saved for later.
6) Filtered the solution to remove more of the seals and some more black powder.
7) Added table salt to the solution, got an immediate reaction with a white cloud that settled in 30 or so minutes to form thick course off white clumps with a hint of tan. The solution lost its blue color and turned green.
8) took a sample and added extra salt to this noticed no more white precipitate.
9) decanted the green liquid to a storage vat filtering as I went left 100 ml of the solution in the flask.
10) added 600 ml of cold water to the precipitate and the solution turned a very light green.
11) decanted again, this time saving a small sample of the precipitate, added ammonia to dissolve, noticed no black sludge in the test tube.
(I later found that the batteries were Hg free)
12) decanted again and washed with hot water, mixed and let settle this produced a tan colored solution.
I repeated this twice, the third solution is now clear with a very fine snow white powder.
So now I have my AgCl precipitate, clear solution, green solution and tan solution.
Im pretty sure my green solution is the zinc which I would like to drop and save but whats the tan solution?
Any ideas?
Thanks
Dave
After reading everything on this post, doing some outside research and a few experiments I took a 75 gr sample of the kg or so I have on hand of 100% confirmed silver oxide batteries .
I opened the lip of the battery with a pliers / wire cutter combination.
1) I places these exposed batteries in a water bath, in 24 hours this solution turned a brown tan color.
a) ph tested the water as found it was very alkaline.
2) filtered the leach solution and saved the the brown sludge and black particles.
3 ) washed the batteries again 2 times and tested the rinse until it was in the normal range.
4) I left 100 ml of water in an 1500 ml flask ( just enough to cover the batteries) added 300 ml of nitric acid (52%) in 5 stages.
This produced more fumes then I expected, but was able able to vent it safely.
5) once the nitric acid stopped reacting I decanted the solution to 600 ml of water, this produced a very blue solution with hints of green. I was left with the battery casings and some black powder which I saved for later.
6) Filtered the solution to remove more of the seals and some more black powder.
7) Added table salt to the solution, got an immediate reaction with a white cloud that settled in 30 or so minutes to form thick course off white clumps with a hint of tan. The solution lost its blue color and turned green.
8) took a sample and added extra salt to this noticed no more white precipitate.
9) decanted the green liquid to a storage vat filtering as I went left 100 ml of the solution in the flask.
10) added 600 ml of cold water to the precipitate and the solution turned a very light green.
11) decanted again, this time saving a small sample of the precipitate, added ammonia to dissolve, noticed no black sludge in the test tube.
(I later found that the batteries were Hg free)
12) decanted again and washed with hot water, mixed and let settle this produced a tan colored solution.
I repeated this twice, the third solution is now clear with a very fine snow white powder.
So now I have my AgCl precipitate, clear solution, green solution and tan solution.
Im pretty sure my green solution is the zinc which I would like to drop and save but whats the tan solution?
Any ideas?
Thanks
Dave
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Well, yeah, I do have, but please understand I'm not trying to give you a bad time.jungle_Dave said:
Have you given any thought to testing? Stannous chloride, DMG and various other testing procedures to help you identify what you really have? It's all in Hoke's book, as are the instructions for making the test solutions. Until you know and understand these procedures, you're going to have an endless supply of things that mystify you.
You shouldn't be too interested in what others think. They may be wrong. That's why you should read more, and learn to do your own testing. I found it to be the best possible solution when I had unknown substances in solution.
Tan solution? No solids? Have you tested for palladium?
When you have traces of palladium mixed in silver (in solution), it's not uncommon for the solution to have a green color, which will shft towards brown as the percentage of palladium increases.
Test. That's conclusive. Much better than guessing.
Harold
jungle_Dave
Well-known member
Harold_V said:
Hello Harold,
Not too hard on me at all
Your quite right about testing.
Im waiting on stannous crystals in the post, I did not think about palladium even being possible in this solution :shock: but the only way to find out is test.
The tan liquids only showed up with boiling water washes..
Until I get my stannous chloride I'll take a test tube, heat that to 100 C and see what that does.
Thank you and best regards,
Dave
The tan solution is your zinc in a base solution (KOH), or at least the majority with a couple of things included. The HOT water wash is an essential step if your going to run these type batteries. Temperature as well as KOH concentration plays a part also. This step will save you acid in so many ways! Once the wash step is done your acid consumption is insanely low! Removing those steel cases is the real trick to processing these batteries i have found. The rest is easy!
jungle_Dave
Well-known member
Palladium said:
Hi Palladium!
I got the alkaline leach idea from you 8)
In retrospect I over did it a bit with the nitric acid but better safe then sorry on my first run.
These steel caps are and remain the bottle neck in this process, I'm getting a vice to speed things up for my next run, lets see how that goes.
Next step, identify and separate the base metals then neutralize the solutions. By the way, CP metallic zinc is really expensive here, as I get fixers too that will be a big bonus !
Thanks again,
Dave
- Joined
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I'm not too proud to say that that's an experience I had frequently, and never did manage to solve. I had no idea then, nor do I now, what the source of that brown solution was, but just like in your case, it developed when doing water washes, and was barely perceptible with HCl washes. In my case, there was no chance it was related to a base, as I didn't process that way.jungle_Dave said:
In my case, it was from bench filings from certain customers. They consistently yielded the brown solution, while it was never a problem processing waste materials from others. This material carried through the refining process and was some what troublesome when the gold was melted, as energized particles would fly from the melting powder, sparkling as they went.
I exhausted my limited testing ability in an attempt to identify the material. I was never successful. That's the price one pays when they're not educated as a chemist.
Because it appeared to be lost in melting, I melted all such recovered gold, which was then used as my added gold when evaporating. That way it was refined a third time, assuring it was totally removed. It was NEVER found in a second refining, so the process appears to have worked adequately.
Harold
A tan solution and something going through filters after the gold is precipitated... I would suspect tin and just the right chemical environment. If there is too strong nitric in the AR then the tin chloride would have turned into metastannic acid.
When we use too much SMB (or SO2) we get a brown response on stannous testing.
I don't know how to test it without expensive analytical equipment though. A hint would come from letting the solution dry up on a surface and then use an XRF on it.
Göran
When we use too much SMB (or SO2) we get a brown response on stannous testing.
I don't know how to test it without expensive analytical equipment though. A hint would come from letting the solution dry up on a surface and then use an XRF on it.
Göran
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Göran,
It should be noted that, in my case, this substance was not a solid. Filtering, for example, didn't offer any degree of separation. It also had no role in how a solution filtered, unlike metastannic acid. I question if it would be related to tin, but at the moment it probably makes as much sense as anything one might propose! :lol:
Harold
It should be noted that, in my case, this substance was not a solid. Filtering, for example, didn't offer any degree of separation. It also had no role in how a solution filtered, unlike metastannic acid. I question if it would be related to tin, but at the moment it probably makes as much sense as anything one might propose! :lol:
Harold
https://www.google.com/?trackid=sp-006#q=button+cell+battery+labeled+AG+or+LR+
saadat, when someone takes the time to respond to your question with a link, you could at least take 10 seconds to follow the link. I did, and in the very first search result, it says in the preview: "AG batteries (often called BUTTON batteries) are non-rechargeable cells, in either Silver Oxide or Alkaline chemistry." The next time someone makes an effort to help you, you should make an effort too.
Dave
Dave
