Shifting to pyrometallurgy process

[Ayham Hafez]

Sure

I might have said that lime (Quick lime) is used to lower the melting point of glass.
Not to use as flux.
And during pyrolizing one don't use flux as you want the PCBs to be exposed.

Sure, I didn't mean to use lime with PCB's while pyrolizing, I thought I can shortcut pyrolizing by using lime as flux when smelting. Now I got your idea

 

[Ayham Hafez]

The smelting thread goes into great detail about what various components of a flux blend accomplish. Analysis of the copper based bullion you produce for base metals will allow you to modify your flux blend to optimize your results. This is a process where you learn and your methods evolve and the mixture you start with will very likely change as well. A close guarded secret of refiners processing copper based bullion for PM's is their flux blend.

The thread will give you the tools, you need to do the testing for a production setup.

I was going again through the smelting thread, its really a valuable thread and I would like to thank all members participated into it.

I have couple questions related to it.

1- in the point of tilting furnace and pouring the metals into water tank to make shots to facilitate weighing the copper anode, Kurtak mentioned that we have to heat the mold before pouring the melted liquid to avoid explosion,and I watched a YouTube video that publisher tried to pour melted copper into ice water bucket and its immediately explosion, so is it safe to pour the melted liquid into water bucket as you mentioned or not?

2- Someone asked about alternative for flourspar as a thinning flux but none answered, is there any alternative cause I didn't find it in my country.

3- you mentioned pyrolizing and incineration as a different processes while other members like Kurtak didn't, does only pyrolizing makes a lot of carbon and we have to incinerate it with burning the pyrolized material with present of oxygen to reduce carbon content? If yes, can we shortcut the incineration with just adding some potassium nitrate as a flux?

4- you and other members focused on removing magnetic materials after milling while there are still value into them like gold plated kovar pins, so why we just shortcut the process and never make magnetic separation rather than that we can increase the oxidizing fluxes to oxidize nickel and iron?

 

[Alondro]

I was going again through the smelting thread, its really a valuable thread and I would like to thank all members participated into it.

I have couple questions related to it.

1- in the point of tilting furnace and pouring the metals into water tank to make shots to facilitate weighing the copper anode, Kurtak mentioned that we have to heat the mold before pouring the melted liquid to avoid explosion,and I watched a YouTube video that publisher tried to pour melted copper into ice water bucket and its immediately explosion, so is it safe to pour the melted liquid into water bucket as you mentioned or not?

2- Someone asked about alternative for flourspar as a thinning flux but none answered, is there any alternative cause I didn't find it in my country.

3- you mentioned pyrolizing and incineration as a different processes while other members like Kurtak didn't, does only pyrolizing makes a lot of carbon and we have to incinerate it with burning the pyrolized material with present of oxygen to reduce carbon content? If yes, can we shortcut the incineration with just adding some potassium nitrate as a flux?

4- you and other members focused on removing magnetic materials after milling while there are still value into them like gold plated kovar pins, so why we just shortcut the process and never make magnetic separation rather than that we can increase the oxidizing fluxes to oxidize nickel and iron?

To make shot, you pour the molten metal into the ice water SLOWLY. Just a dribble. That won't explode.

 

[goldshark]

I was going again through the smelting thread, its really a valuable thread and I would like to thank all members participated into it.

I have couple questions related to it.

1- in the point of tilting furnace and pouring the metals into water tank to make shots to facilitate weighing the copper anode, Kurtak mentioned that we have to heat the mold before pouring the melted liquid to avoid explosion,and I watched a YouTube video that publisher tried to pour melted copper into ice water bucket and its immediately explosion, so is it safe to pour the melted liquid into water bucket as you mentioned or not?

2- Someone asked about alternative for flourspar as a thinning flux but none answered, is there any alternative cause I didn't find it in my country.

3- you mentioned pyrolizing and incineration as a different processes while other members like Kurtak didn't, does only pyrolizing makes a lot of carbon and we have to incinerate it with burning the pyrolized material with present of oxygen to reduce carbon content? If yes, can we shortcut the incineration with just adding some potassium nitrate as a flux?

4- you and other members focused on removing magnetic materials after milling while there are still value into them like gold plated kovar pins, so why we just shortcut the process and never make magnetic separation rather than that we can increase the oxidizing fluxes to oxidize nickel and iron?

Question #1 = The guy in the Tube video poured too much, too quickly. This caused entrapment of water inside the very hot Copper. Effectively creating a Copper hand grenade. Pour slowly into a deep vessel of water. A wet board on a 45 degree slope, helps break up the pour into finer size shot. Pour about an inch above the water line, and wet the board just prior to pouring.
#2 - Fluorspar is a thinning agent for some melts. Since you didn't mention what the composition is, of what you are trying to melt, it is tough to say what the alternative to Fluorspar would be, and if some other addition of say more Sodium Hydroxide, is really all it would take to thin it. To read more on fluxes, read Bugbee's book on assaying, in the library.

 

[Ayham Hafez]

Question #1 = The guy in the Tube video poured too much, too quickly. This caused entrapment of water inside the very hot Copper. Effectively creating a Copper hand grenade. Pour slowly into a deep vessel of water. A wet board on a 45 degree slope, helps break up the pour into finer size shot. Pour about an inch above the water line, and wet the board just prior to pouring.
#2 - Fluorspar is a thinning agent for some melts. Since you didn't mention what the composition is, of what you are trying to melt, it is tough to say what the alternative to Fluorspar would be, and if some other addition of say more Sodium Hydroxide, is really all it would take to thin it. To read more on fluxes, read Bugbee's book on assaying, in the library.

Thanks a lot,I found a book called Fire Assaying and Determination of the Noble Metals in Geological Materials, it takes about dry reagents,after finish will go throw Bugbee's book

 

[Ayham Hafez]

I have said no such thing, for pyrolyzing you don't use any fluxes.
It don't have to be expensive, any metal container in which you put in a tube to lead the gases into the fire will do.

Thanks @Yggdrasil , you inspired me to build a simple pyrolsis reactor with afterburner, it already tested and it gives a very high carbonization for the input materials,it cost me less than 30$.

My next step is to find a way to reduce the carbon content after pyrolysis, one barrel take about 120 Kg of VGA connectors, I was willing to save time of labors to get the low grade pins, but now am facing carbon issue, for sure smelting is the best way but I still need more time to go with it.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Thanks @Yggdrasil , you inspired me to build a simple pyrolsis reactor with afterburner, it already tested and it gives a very high carbonization for the input materials,it cost me less than 30$.

My next step is to find a way to reduce the carbon content after pyrolysis, one barrel take about 120 Kg of VGA connectors, I was willing to save time of labors to get the low grade pins, but now am facing carbon issue, for sure smelting is the best way but I still need more time to go with it.

You still need to incinerate well after pyrolyzing.
Pyrolyzing is to remove and destroy the volatile toxic compounds.
After incinerating with plenty of excess of Oxygen.

Edit for spelling.

 

[Ayham Hafez]

Ypu still need to incinerate well after pyrolyzing.
Pyrolyzing is to remove and destroy the volatile toxic compounds.
After incinerating with plenty of excess of Oxygen.

Any ideas about how we can incinerate big amounts at once? Like 100 kg of PCBs or connectors.

 

[Ayham Hafez]

Ypu still need to incinerate well after pyrolyzing.
Pyrolyzing is to remove and destroy the volatile toxic compounds.
After incinerating with plenty of excess of Oxygen.

Regardless smoke and fuel source generated from afterburner that could used to heat the pyrolised materials. Is there any differences if I pyrolize into crucible located in small gas smelting furnace without cover it with lid or use afterburner,just heat it to about 600 c temp for 1 hour then increase the temp to 800, does this process will make same results of normal pyrolsis then incineration?

In another word, is there any differences between pyrolizing and incineration on processed material itself?

 

[FrugalRefiner]

The problem with incinerating in a crucible is that it is narrow and deep, so oxygen doesn't get down to the material at the bottom of the crucible. For incineration, you want something that is short and wide, so you can spread the material out into a thin layer so oxygen can get down to the lower material. Something like a stainless steel frying pan works well. Even then, you want to stir the material around from time to time to bring the material at the bottom up to the top. Oxygen is key to burning off the carbon.

Dave

 

[Ayham Hafez]

The problem with incinerating in a crucible is that it is narrow and deep, so oxygen doesn't get down to the material at the bottom of the crucible. For incineration, you want something that is short and wide, so you can spread the material out into a thin layer so oxygen can get down to the lower material. Something like a stainless steel frying pan works well. Even then, you want to stir the material around from time to time to bring the material at the bottom up to the top. Oxygen is key to burning off the carbon.

Dave

Is there any different if I just incinerate without pyrolizing?

 

[Yggdrasil]

Is there any different if I just incinerate without pyrolizing?

As we have said many times.
The purpose of pyrolizing is to vent off the toxic gases and lead them into the hottest part of the fire so it is properly decomposed.

 

[FrugalRefiner]

Is there any different if I just incinerate without pyrolizing?

Yes, you'll poison yourself and those around you.

But as Yggdrasil said, you've been told that before. Maybe you just wanted to hear it from someone else. If so, you just did. Pyrolize first, then incinerate.

Dave

 

[Ayham Hafez]

Yes, you'll poison yourself and those around you.

But as Yggdrasil said, you've been told that before. Maybe you just wanted to hear it from someone else. If so, you just did. Pyrolize first, then incinerate.

Dave

I'm asking that just to build my knowledge so I can build a proper equipment to reach optimum results with minimum work.

 

[Muratthechemist]

Hello All,
I hope i understand problem well,
If you want to get precious metal from PCB's, you should make final step of copper electrolysis.
Its really hard to get 98-99 % copper because of PCB contents.
I see one picture from chinese machine producer. Yes it can remove components but still on de PCB's there will be soldering material which it cannot remowe it.
Lead and Tin. Lead is not problem because in melting process, you need to add oxidising flux such as CaO etc. You may check on internet. When lead oxidise it can be evaporate and catch by jetpulse filtration. Lead will seperate smootlhy. But Tin brings problem as itself.

Also, when you add flux like other members said, you need to control liquidity and also acidity because when copper gets oxides, it will be breakable easily when you melted.
First oxidise then de oxydise your molten copper. You may put some wood, chorcle or any kind of carbon source to deoxydise it.
And most important part;
You should remove tin from your copper before electrolysis process. Its hard process but as i know it takes too much time.
Then you should melt as anode of copper like anyone can do. When your cathodes are full, you will have also sludge under the tank.
That sludge will contain platinum palladium and gold. (maybe others too totaly depends input PCB)
Than you will apply seperation of metals in chemical process.
I am sorry for my english but i hope you get the point.

 

[Ayham Hafez]

Hello All,
I hope i understand problem well,
If you want to get precious metal from PCB's, you should make final step of copper electrolysis.
Its really hard to get 98-99 % copper because of PCB contents.
I see one picture from chinese machine producer. Yes it can remove components but still on de PCB's there will be soldering material which it cannot remowe it.
Lead and Tin. Lead is not problem because in melting process, you need to add oxidising flux such as CaO etc. You may check on internet. When lead oxidise it can be evaporate and catch by jetpulse filtration. Lead will seperate smootlhy. But Tin brings problem as itself.

Also, when you add flux like other members said, you need to control liquidity and also acidity because when copper gets oxides, it will be breakable easily when you melted.
First oxidise then de oxydise your molten copper. You may put some wood, chorcle or any kind of carbon source to deoxydise it.
And most important part;
You should remove tin from your copper before electrolysis process. Its hard process but as i know it takes too much time.
Then you should melt as anode of copper like anyone can do. When your cathodes are full, you will have also sludge under the tank.
That sludge will contain platinum palladium and gold. (maybe others too totaly depends input PCB)
Than you will apply seperation of metals in chemical process.
I am sorry for my english but i hope you get the point.

Thanks for your input, but I thought soda ash will oxidize tin, isn't it?

 

[Yggdrasil]

Thanks for your input, but I thought soda ash will oxidize tin, isn't it?

The Soda Ash's function in Flux is to lower the melting temperature of the Flux/Charge.
As is its main function when making glass.

 

[Ayham Hafez]

The Soda Ash's function in Flux is to lower the melting temperature of the Flux/Charge.
As is its main function when making glass.

In smelting thread, 4metals mentioned that soda ash is an oxidizing agent,if its not, how we can oxidize tin?

 

[Yggdrasil]

In smelting thread, 4metals mentioned that soda ash is an oxidizing agent,if its not, how we can oxidize tin?

It might be oxidizing as well as thinning.
But there are stronger oxidizers like Nitrite or Nitrates.

 

[Yggdrasil]

In smelting thread, 4metals mentioned that soda ash is an oxidizing agent,if its not, how we can oxidize tin?

Read this:
https://www.911metallurgist.com/blog/oxidising-agents-used-assaying