Precipitation for newbs
- Thread starter Jmk88
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jarlowski1
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2013
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Jmk88 said:
Care to elaborate why you would be mortified.... Maybe this person enjoys science/chemistry.
I make my own beer when I have time too.
Dave
Dave
jarlowski1
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2013
- Messages
- 176
Ehh.. Not really comparing apples to apples but to someone who may not be so skilled in chemistry it may seem really cool and they get the added bonus of hopefully succeeding and tasting some really tasty beer. To each his own
Jmk88 said:
I've had a couple of batches that didn't turn out so well in the beginning, but for the most part it's very good.
Dave
JoeyJoystick
Well-known member
Dear all,
Like many I came to this forum as a complete and total novice. You read a little and than a little more and than you're hooked. There are few places on the web where soo much knowledge is being shared by so many people whom have so much experience. On any subject may I add. I have come to admire and look up to this vast wealth of knowledge and experience, and the people whom represent this and make this possible. And many of the main players are professional refiners or semi-professional refiners who have years and years of experience doing what they are doing.
I applaud the warnings to the newbies who at occasions clearly have little idea what they are doing. The guidance being given to them to steer them in the right direction while at the same time keeping them safe. Fantastic!
But, where I come from , we say there is many roads that lead to Rome.
When someone walks into the forum and has some experience and gained knowledge from an experienced refiner as he claims than this may add something to what is already known. To shoot down somebody like this simply because he does not work the way you work is truly disgraceful. And this is done by some of the most respected members of the forum. To make matters worse they mention other members by name on a few occasions to give their own statements more force (a big thank you to these guys for staying out of this...)
Sorry guys, I am very disappointed by the lack of communication skills you have displayed. The inability to open your mind and the willingness to publicly try to shoot down someone who is just sharing something new and different. And, may I repeat, this is NOT a newby who doesn't know what he is talking about. Even though he may not be at the same level as yourselves.
I am kindly asking you to stop this. Please sit back and reread this thread in its entirety. And than give it some more thought keeping in mind the above.
I myself, for one, am very disappointed. I know the chances are low because people tend to be too proud to admit wrong, but I am hoping to see some kind of reconciliation the next time I look. Right now I am thinking that I may not even come back and look for this, but I know myself, I will be back once I have cooled down.
Some of you have fallen of the pedestal you were on. Please get your act together and get back on your pedestals where you belong and let me look up to you again.
Joey
Like many I came to this forum as a complete and total novice. You read a little and than a little more and than you're hooked. There are few places on the web where soo much knowledge is being shared by so many people whom have so much experience. On any subject may I add. I have come to admire and look up to this vast wealth of knowledge and experience, and the people whom represent this and make this possible. And many of the main players are professional refiners or semi-professional refiners who have years and years of experience doing what they are doing.
I applaud the warnings to the newbies who at occasions clearly have little idea what they are doing. The guidance being given to them to steer them in the right direction while at the same time keeping them safe. Fantastic!
But, where I come from , we say there is many roads that lead to Rome.
When someone walks into the forum and has some experience and gained knowledge from an experienced refiner as he claims than this may add something to what is already known. To shoot down somebody like this simply because he does not work the way you work is truly disgraceful. And this is done by some of the most respected members of the forum. To make matters worse they mention other members by name on a few occasions to give their own statements more force (a big thank you to these guys for staying out of this...)
Sorry guys, I am very disappointed by the lack of communication skills you have displayed. The inability to open your mind and the willingness to publicly try to shoot down someone who is just sharing something new and different. And, may I repeat, this is NOT a newby who doesn't know what he is talking about. Even though he may not be at the same level as yourselves.
I am kindly asking you to stop this. Please sit back and reread this thread in its entirety. And than give it some more thought keeping in mind the above.
I myself, for one, am very disappointed. I know the chances are low because people tend to be too proud to admit wrong, but I am hoping to see some kind of reconciliation the next time I look. Right now I am thinking that I may not even come back and look for this, but I know myself, I will be back once I have cooled down.
Some of you have fallen of the pedestal you were on. Please get your act together and get back on your pedestals where you belong and let me look up to you again.
Joey
Joey,
A fellow Joe.
I understand where you’re coming from.... I myself am Irish. We tend to say something between ourselves, argue, and then unite.
However, we are there for each other no matter what.
I for one, have never had a time where one of the senior members/jedis have failed to respond to my PMs. Even butcher when he is struggling with arthritic conditions he still takes time to write me txt that has taken a long time to do and probably has done in pain.
I would rather look stupid than be considered ignorant or obnoxious.
I think the discussions in this thread are testament to the respect people actually have for each other here.
And keep it in context... I think what they’re saying is some newbies do not have patience or finesse and could end up oxidising everything if not careful with my approach! Which I fully understand.
Either way, let’s continue the good work. You listen to these guys and you will go far.... that’s said from someone who has gone from nothing to Producing 99.99 purity based on these people’s advice.
A fellow Joe.
I understand where you’re coming from.... I myself am Irish. We tend to say something between ourselves, argue, and then unite.
However, we are there for each other no matter what.
I for one, have never had a time where one of the senior members/jedis have failed to respond to my PMs. Even butcher when he is struggling with arthritic conditions he still takes time to write me txt that has taken a long time to do and probably has done in pain.
I would rather look stupid than be considered ignorant or obnoxious.
I think the discussions in this thread are testament to the respect people actually have for each other here.
And keep it in context... I think what they’re saying is some newbies do not have patience or finesse and could end up oxidising everything if not careful with my approach! Which I fully understand.
Either way, let’s continue the good work. You listen to these guys and you will go far.... that’s said from someone who has gone from nothing to Producing 99.99 purity based on these people’s advice.
Also for me.... I respect this in a way that I haven’t respected something before... it’s becoming my passion.... it’s beginning to challenge the female population as my number one passion....
My main thoughts always arise from that.... this isn’t something you should be doing for money or profit. You will not succeed at it and you’ll likely destroy your health and environment.... like lunatics frying mercury in their kitchens or poisoning their neighbours.
You need to respect everything about doing it along with yourself. This isn’t like brick laying or carpentry in the sense you can get there without having passion and respect, via using it as a means of money making. That doesn’t mean it can’t make very good money.
Compare it to a sportsman.... he never got to the elite league because he was a businessman. He got there through passion and dedication and lots of set backs.
And the harsh reality is, although we can always have ideas and share those, you would be completely misguided to not take on board these comments, even when the tone can be slightly unfriendly. These people aren’t stupid.... if they identify the above is in you they will help you.
If they can see you’re here for a quick buck.... I suspect they do the opposite.
And at the end of the day.... as long as you are safe you are at liberty to try what you please. No one other than you will lose sleep over lost gold... and believe me I’ve lost enough to lose sleep about.
My main thoughts always arise from that.... this isn’t something you should be doing for money or profit. You will not succeed at it and you’ll likely destroy your health and environment.... like lunatics frying mercury in their kitchens or poisoning their neighbours.
You need to respect everything about doing it along with yourself. This isn’t like brick laying or carpentry in the sense you can get there without having passion and respect, via using it as a means of money making. That doesn’t mean it can’t make very good money.
Compare it to a sportsman.... he never got to the elite league because he was a businessman. He got there through passion and dedication and lots of set backs.
And the harsh reality is, although we can always have ideas and share those, you would be completely misguided to not take on board these comments, even when the tone can be slightly unfriendly. These people aren’t stupid.... if they identify the above is in you they will help you.
If they can see you’re here for a quick buck.... I suspect they do the opposite.
And at the end of the day.... as long as you are safe you are at liberty to try what you please. No one other than you will lose sleep over lost gold... and believe me I’ve lost enough to lose sleep about.
We are just trying to help each other, heck we all learn from each other...
I Like making my own, almost everything you name it.
I was sitting on the hill today looking over the spring woods, and thought about, having to revise what we learn and know, and how we do not know what we do not know (until later after we learn or experience more in life.
How as a kid if I only knew a small portion of what I do now, I could have done many small things that would make a big difference, like say take an ole ford truck water pump and the ole truck and make a pump, to pump spring water to the house and put in indoor plumbing, or when the crops needed to be watered for lack of rain, oh how a small bit of education or experience could have saved so much of that hard labor it took to survive...
I work hard to see where I may have to revise what I (think) know and understand, or look to find where I am wrong. Just like the notebooks of old that needs re-written, just about as much of learning more is also revising much of the old information we knew or understood...
I Like making my own, almost everything you name it.
I was sitting on the hill today looking over the spring woods, and thought about, having to revise what we learn and know, and how we do not know what we do not know (until later after we learn or experience more in life.
How as a kid if I only knew a small portion of what I do now, I could have done many small things that would make a big difference, like say take an ole ford truck water pump and the ole truck and make a pump, to pump spring water to the house and put in indoor plumbing, or when the crops needed to be watered for lack of rain, oh how a small bit of education or experience could have saved so much of that hard labor it took to survive...
I work hard to see where I may have to revise what I (think) know and understand, or look to find where I am wrong. Just like the notebooks of old that needs re-written, just about as much of learning more is also revising much of the old information we knew or understood...
JoeyJoystick
Well-known member
Dear Butcher and Jmk88,
You can see from my writing that I was upset, I may even have overreacted. Admittedly I am a little emotional lately because life is rather tough at the moment. Reading your replies made me so happy that I am now writing this with tears in my eyes. Call me an emotional prick. I don't care.
I am glad to see that you wrote what you wrote. It makes me happy. Very happy.
Most of you do know that this forum is extraordinary in the sense that there is a lot of information available. But there is really not many places on the internet where so many people try to help each other in a completely selfless manner. And it is this what makes this place so special. In todays world where most people care more about themselves and money, this is an extraordinary thing to have achieved. And I am glad to see that it is obviously still like that.
Again thanks for the response. I hope you guys are not mad.
Joey
You can see from my writing that I was upset, I may even have overreacted. Admittedly I am a little emotional lately because life is rather tough at the moment. Reading your replies made me so happy that I am now writing this with tears in my eyes. Call me an emotional prick. I don't care.
I am glad to see that you wrote what you wrote. It makes me happy. Very happy.
Most of you do know that this forum is extraordinary in the sense that there is a lot of information available. But there is really not many places on the internet where so many people try to help each other in a completely selfless manner. And it is this what makes this place so special. In todays world where most people care more about themselves and money, this is an extraordinary thing to have achieved. And I am glad to see that it is obviously still like that.
Again thanks for the response. I hope you guys are not mad.
Joey
No not at all mad! I completely get where you we’re coming from. Like you say sometimes txt conversation can be a bit misleading as the body language and facial expression that normally deformalises the conversation to a degree.
And that’s what I think we’re all here for. To discuss and then reflect on the discussion which I think everyone sensible will always take things from, whether they publicly declare or not.
I hope things aren’t too tough at the moment. It’s a very strange time for everyone. The unknown always affects us and how we interpret information.
Keep well Joey.
And that’s what I think we’re all here for. To discuss and then reflect on the discussion which I think everyone sensible will always take things from, whether they publicly declare or not.
I hope things aren’t too tough at the moment. It’s a very strange time for everyone. The unknown always affects us and how we interpret information.
Keep well Joey.
This is a very difficult way to communicate with each other.
We cannot see so we are blind.
We are limited to our typing and the words we can muster.
Many members have to resort to translating, as many of us speak different languages, and have different customs in the way and sometimes say thing or even differ in the meanings of the words or phrases we use.
You cannot see a grin or wink or twinkle in the eyes or the wrinkles in the forehead, we cannot hear a tone or chuckle or growling or gritting of the teeth.
It is easy enough for us to misunderstand someone who you have full communication with, and difficult to be understanding totally of those you are blinded too and have very limited ability to communicate effectively with.
The forum members are a special breed and they work hard to overcome these problems...
We cannot see so we are blind.
We are limited to our typing and the words we can muster.
Many members have to resort to translating, as many of us speak different languages, and have different customs in the way and sometimes say thing or even differ in the meanings of the words or phrases we use.
You cannot see a grin or wink or twinkle in the eyes or the wrinkles in the forehead, we cannot hear a tone or chuckle or growling or gritting of the teeth.
It is easy enough for us to misunderstand someone who you have full communication with, and difficult to be understanding totally of those you are blinded too and have very limited ability to communicate effectively with.
The forum members are a special breed and they work hard to overcome these problems...
JoeyJoystick
Well-known member
For the communication I know exactly what you're talking about. I've left my country 27 years ago. The last 15 years here in Thailand. My language learning abilities are not good so I do not speak Thai, which, yes, is a disgrace after 15 years. But the result is obviously that we all talk in English. Broken English or Tinglish as some call it here. And than on top of that you also get the cultural differences between people from different countries. And surely the difference between Asian cultures and western cultures is very big. But we should also not underestimate the difference between western cultures (or between Asian cultures for that matter). I am Dutch and I see you are from the US and Ireland. Here too we have some fairly noticeable differences between us.
Anyway, I have interrupted this thread enough as it is. So I will keep my mouth shut for the rest and keep on reading, ask questions and try to open my mouth about things I actually know something about.
See you around guys.
Joey
Anyway, I have interrupted this thread enough as it is. So I will keep my mouth shut for the rest and keep on reading, ask questions and try to open my mouth about things I actually know something about.
See you around guys.
Joey
Martijn
Well-known member
Friends, not sure if my question is in the right section, but since it's about precipitation, and i'm such a noob: :wink:
I have experienced something new
: i was melting my buttons together and noticed triangular crystal patterns in the bottom side of the button, i suspected PGM's.
Redissolving the buton slowly in AR(10 gr of gold in 50ml HCL and about 6 ml HNO3, in small addittions) the button almost dissolved in a closed erlenmyer flask overnight, leaving the reaction on low heat, +\- 50 C.
This morning, there was a small bit of gold left undissolved, and i found a light colored precipitation around the button.
These were small buttons already refined in AR, so silver can be ruled out, since no AgCl formed during earlier AR baths. No lead fell out upon adding ad drop of sulfuric acid. So no lead present.
Is my assumption correct that these are one or more PGM's that fell out onto the gold because of the reactivity series?
If so, would a PGM stockpot be an idea to separate the PGM's from Auric Chloride in solution before going to the "regular" stockpot? a 'dirty' piece of gold contaminated with PGM's would refine itself eventually, leaving only PGM powders left?
The cemented gold in the regular stockpot would then be almost free of PGM's?
Or am i mistaken and does this not apply to the most noble metals in the reactivity series?
The last bit of undissolved gold will also have a bit of the same PGM's left, but much less compared to what the whole bath would have contained?
Maybe someone has experienced this while using gold to consume the last bit of free nitric from the pregnant solution.
Consuming all the nitric by adding enough gold would prevent redissolving of these powders back into solution if nitric is still present.
I would like to hear your thoughts on this.
Martijn.
The button almost dissolved and the powder laying in the middle after giving it a swirl.
I will filter the powder before all the gold is dissolved and redissolve that in AR to test with stannous, should give a clear answer, if Pt or Pd is present.
Martijn.
I have experienced something new
: i was melting my buttons together and noticed triangular crystal patterns in the bottom side of the button, i suspected PGM's. Redissolving the buton slowly in AR(10 gr of gold in 50ml HCL and about 6 ml HNO3, in small addittions) the button almost dissolved in a closed erlenmyer flask overnight, leaving the reaction on low heat, +\- 50 C.
This morning, there was a small bit of gold left undissolved, and i found a light colored precipitation around the button.
These were small buttons already refined in AR, so silver can be ruled out, since no AgCl formed during earlier AR baths. No lead fell out upon adding ad drop of sulfuric acid. So no lead present.
Is my assumption correct that these are one or more PGM's that fell out onto the gold because of the reactivity series?
If so, would a PGM stockpot be an idea to separate the PGM's from Auric Chloride in solution before going to the "regular" stockpot? a 'dirty' piece of gold contaminated with PGM's would refine itself eventually, leaving only PGM powders left?
The cemented gold in the regular stockpot would then be almost free of PGM's?
Or am i mistaken and does this not apply to the most noble metals in the reactivity series?
The last bit of undissolved gold will also have a bit of the same PGM's left, but much less compared to what the whole bath would have contained?
Maybe someone has experienced this while using gold to consume the last bit of free nitric from the pregnant solution.
Consuming all the nitric by adding enough gold would prevent redissolving of these powders back into solution if nitric is still present.
I would like to hear your thoughts on this.
Martijn.
The button almost dissolved and the powder laying in the middle after giving it a swirl.
I will filter the powder before all the gold is dissolved and redissolve that in AR to test with stannous, should give a clear answer, if Pt or Pd is present.
Martijn.
I wouldn't totally rule out AgCl. A bit of silver can sneak through AR, especially if the solution is concentrated and high in Cl-. Remember that Harold developed a washing procedure using ammonia to eliminate his because he always precipitated from very concentrated solutions. The easy way to test that will be to try an ammonia wash on the precipitate, followed promptly with addition of HCl to the solution after filtering any remaining precipitate.
If there is remaining precipitate following an ammonia wash, I would keep it separate and add to it any time you have a similar situation. Gather it till you have enough to make it worthwhile, then process it as a PGM concentrate.
Dave
If there is remaining precipitate following an ammonia wash, I would keep it separate and add to it any time you have a similar situation. Gather it till you have enough to make it worthwhile, then process it as a PGM concentrate.
Dave
I reckon Dave is right.
What was the original material it came from? Was that likely to have Pgm?
If this is the second refine only it’s almost certain to have silver in my opinion. If I’m lazy with my recovery and don’t clean with lots of water before placing in AR I always get lots of silver chloride (I say lots, enough to see) the second refine if I’ve melted the dust from the first.
No matter how much I wash my first refine and incinerate between procedures I can never get my finish as nice as a second process. And I’ve never seen any on the third.
I reckon it’s silver chloride.
What was the original material it came from? Was that likely to have Pgm?
If this is the second refine only it’s almost certain to have silver in my opinion. If I’m lazy with my recovery and don’t clean with lots of water before placing in AR I always get lots of silver chloride (I say lots, enough to see) the second refine if I’ve melted the dust from the first.
No matter how much I wash my first refine and incinerate between procedures I can never get my finish as nice as a second process. And I’ve never seen any on the third.
I reckon it’s silver chloride.
