Issues with GEO

[Geo]

Just curious if PouDouche ever supplied prepaid shipping labels he was supposed to, or if he expects you to pay to return his unsolicited material?

I have received nothing. Never really expected him to. I have been in a setup before and this is certainly beginning to smell like one.

 

[4metals]

I have been in a setup before and this is certainly beginning to smell like one.

My experience with e-scrap circuit boards is with larger lots and I certainly don’t pretend to know yields by specific components. That type of detail is known by a lot of smaller hobby refiners and collectors.

I do know that as a general rule of thumb a ton of circuit boards will yield between 3 and 8 ounces of gold on average. This is from personal experiences working with e-scrap refiners doing between 5 and 10 tons per week. Relatively small shops.

Given the amount of material received does the incoming yield expected (close to 2 ounces, as the supposed value is $3,500) fit within the parameters accepted for e-scrap in bulk?

 

[Geo]

My experience with e-scrap circuit boards is with larger lots and I certainly don’t pretend to know yields by specific components. That type of detail is known by a lot of smaller hobby refiners and collectors.

I do know that as a general rule of thumb a ton of circuit boards will yield between 3 and 8 ounces of gold on average. This is from personal experiences working with e-scrap refiners doing between 5 and 10 tons per week. Relatively small shops.

Given the amount of material received does the incoming yield expected (close to 2 ounces, as the supposed value is $3,500) fit within the parameters accepted for e-scrap in bulk?

It seems a very inflated estimate to me. I believe that estimate was based on sale price of whole boards on boardsort. Since I have never sold to them, I seriously have no idea.

 

[Yggdrasil]

I believe we have seen enough dirty laundry in this thread now.
This is an issue between the two of you.
no matter how much either of you debate "your" side of it, we will never know the whole picture,
and frankly it is none of our business.

This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors by you two responsible parties and stayed there.
Any way matters are what they are and I would be happy to end this now,
with one post from each of you that this is out of the world.
So we can go back to what we strive to be good at, recovery and refining of precious metals.
Agreed?

 

[nickvc]

I agree with Yggdrasil there has been enough posted about this,
Im getting to the point of locking this thread as it’s serving no benefit to the forum.
We have no authority over or responsibility for any deals done between members of the forum and can’t and will not advise who to deal with or not, as the old saying goes buyer / seller beware.
I hope this is the end of this as my patience is getting very thin.

 

[poudouche]

It certainly looks as though the forum does have one. Just "obviously" not a good one.

to everybody
I think it is time to put a close to this matter
i will wait for the materials to be shipped
i will reimburse GEO for all expenses he will incur
I always said that I had always have great respect for GEO
Regards
POUDOUCHE

 

[kurtak]

My experience with e-scrap circuit boards is with larger lots and I certainly don’t pretend to know yields by specific components. That type of detail is known by a lot of smaller hobby refiners and collectors.

I do know that as a general rule of thumb a ton of circuit boards will yield between 3 and 8 ounces of gold on average. This is from personal experiences working with e-scrap refiners doing between 5 and 10 tons per week. Relatively small shops.

Given the amount of material received does the incoming yield expected (close to 2 ounces, as the supposed value is $3,500) fit within the parameters accepted for e-scrap in bulk?

Per the bold print; - yes - the prices LARGE board buyers pay is based entirely on the recovery values of the PMs (Au/Pd/Ag/Cu) in the various "categories" of boards (keep in mind that these LARGE board buyers are in business to "make a profit" after purchase price & their overhead cost which it's self is large)

These LARGE board buyers buy with the express purpose of sending their boards in simi trucks &/or overseas shipping containers to LARGE smelters & they do so because the smelters pay them based on the PM recovery

So - in order for these buyers to determine what they can pay for a particular category of boards (& make a profit) they have done their home work & that home work is in fact based on having done "representative sample assays" of the particular board category

Jon (from England) who buys boards in large amounts built his business on knowing the PM values in the different categories & he knows those values because of assays he has done on each category

He sends several shipping containers of boards to Mitsubishi in Japan (the smelter) knowing full well he will make a profit on the PMs in the boards because assays have been done on each category in order to determine purchase price of each category

Here is a link to Mitsubishi where Jon send his boards

https://www.mmc.co.jp/corporate/en/...as well as by-products such as sulfuric acid.
The same is true with Dynamic Recycling in Wisconsin whom I used to sell 2 - 3 tons of boards per month to

They also set their board category pricing because assays have been done on each category to insure they will make a profit on the boards they send to the smelter

https://thinkdynamic.com/
Dynamic also sends their boards (for smelting) to Mitsubishi in Japan (at least I believe it's Mitsubishi - I know they send them to Japan) they send about 130 - 160 shipping containers per month to Japan

IRT Recycling in Minnesota - whom I have also done business with (another LARGE board buyer) actually has there own assay lab

https://irtmn.com/
Also - 2 or 3 times a year I would take a lode (plus/minus 2 tons) of boards (higher grade) to a "small" smelter in Minnesota because doing so would pay me a bit more profit then selling to the board buyers - which is why I did this with higher grade boards - smaller lot size but better profit

https://www.enviro-chemmn.com/
In other words - I purchased boards based on the price listing of these board buyers (paid 20 -30% under their list price) I then sold the mid & low grade boards to these board buyers - the higher grade stuff I took to the smelter - the VERY HIGH grade stuff I processed in house - when I took stuff to the smelter I knew exactly what the value of those boards were if I sold them to a board buyer because I had the boards "well sorted" into there (higher grade) categories & therefore knew just how much more I was making sending to the smelter instead of selling to the board buyer - & it was always a bit more sending to the smelter then selling to the board buyers

In other words - YES - board PM values are ALWAYS higher then board purchase value & that is because board PM values determine the board purchase price - on which the board buyers MUST make a profit on when they send the boards to the smelter

So (as example) if a board buyer pays $28 per pound for RAM they pay that price because when they send a simi lode &/or shipping container of RAM to the smelter - they know that the PMs the smelter pays them on will "net" them a profit

Now - does that mean that every RAM stick has the exact same value - of course not - it means they have done enough assays on LARGE lots of RAM to KNOW that they will net a profit on the purchase price they pay for RAM

There is enough of a mix even in even a 100 pound of RAM for this "profit" factor (something great then purchase price) to hold true

Kurt

 

[jphayesjr]

I disagree. We don't need to legally protect anyone. That gives responsibility to the forum and a false feeling of being protected against bad deals for either refiners or the scrap owners.

I have been conracted through this forum by a local and I am, just like GEO toll refining his material in my own time, the 'customer' knows this.
Did the forum knew he wrote me a PM and we agreed something? Do i want the forum to know? Does my customer? How could the forum possibly protect him from me scamming him if i wanted to?
When is it a scam? When percentages are not met, as in my case? It really made me feel bad for days, if not weeks trying to find any losses. Do we have detectives to do research?

Should the forum also compensate losses if it still goes south in one sides opinion?

Only inform.

Agreements are made between people or buisinesses. You get better at them in time, just like in refining.

We advise in refining and chemistry, not in legal cases. It's a learning curve.

Some new members contribute financially and thereby even feel that they should get a personal trainer!!??

Please no diaper department here.

They need to learn themselves. And start out small and build up reliable relations and trust.

Don't hand out fishes, hand out rods and nets.
Let this thread be a lesson for all to respect privacy and keep slander out.

Still not choosing any side, but defending our collective refiners club, and GEO from the things he was accused of. True or false. I was not there. I do have a gut feeling in one direction. I could be wrong.

Things are heating up here between respected members I learned from and admire and I truly am upset about it.
Give each other the benefit of the doubt, stick to proven facts and stay civilized.
Things may seem very wrong when presented in a certain way but it's still one side of a story until backed by proof.
Then the proof is only part of the whole story. There were conversations, phone calls and they were not recorded. What was once agreed in writing can be changed by a handshake, a wink or nodding. Prove that?

Martijn.

Self-policing by members and sharing known facts is the best remedy, agreed. This group has a proven unwillingness to tolerate BS and flim-flam.

 

[jphayesjr]

Per the bold print; - yes - the prices LARGE board buyers pay is based entirely on the recovery values of the PMs (Au/Pd/Ag/Cu) in the various "categories" of boards (keep in mind that these LARGE board buyers are in business to "make a profit" after purchase price & their overhead cost which it's self is large)

These LARGE board buyers buy with the express purpose of sending their boards in simi trucks &/or overseas shipping containers to LARGE smelters & they do so because the smelters pay them based on the PM recovery

So - in order for these buyers to determine what they can pay for a particular category of boards (& make a profit) they have done their home work & that home work is in fact based on having done "representative sample assays" of the particular board category

Jon (from England) who buys boards in large amounts built his business on knowing the PM values in the different categories & he knows those values because of assays he has done on each category

He sends several shipping containers of boards to Mitsubishi in Japan (the smelter) knowing full well he will make a profit on the PMs in the boards because assays have been done on each category in order to determine purchase price of each category

Here is a link to Mitsubishi where Jon send his boards

https://www.mmc.co.jp/corporate/en/...as well as by-products such as sulfuric acid.
The same is true with Dynamic Recycling in Wisconsin whom I used to sell 2 - 3 tons of boards per month to

They also set their board category pricing because assays have been done on each category to insure they will make a profit on the boards they send to the smelter

https://thinkdynamic.com/
Dynamic also sends their boards (for smelting) to Mitsubishi in Japan (at least I believe it's Mitsubishi - I know they send them to Japan) they send about 130 - 160 shipping containers per month to Japan

IRT Recycling in Minnesota - whom I have also done business with (another LARGE board buyer) actually has there own assay lab

https://irtmn.com/
Also - 2 or 3 times a year I would take a lode (plus/minus 2 tons) of boards (higher grade) to a "small" smelter in Minnesota because doing so would pay me a bit more profit then selling to the board buyers - which is why I did this with higher grade boards - smaller lot size but better profit

https://www.enviro-chemmn.com/
In other words - I purchased boards based on the price listing of these board buyers (paid 20 -30% under their list price) I then sold the mid & low grade boards to these board buyers - the higher grade stuff I took to the smelter - the VERY HIGH grade stuff I processed in house - when I took stuff to the smelter I knew exactly what the value of those boards were if I sold them to a board buyer because I had the boards "well sorted" into there (higher grade) categories & therefore knew just how much more I was making sending to the smelter instead of selling to the board buyer - & it was always a bit more sending to the smelter then selling to the board buyers

In other words - YES - board PM values are ALWAYS higher then board purchase value & that is because board PM values determine the board purchase price - on which the board buyers MUST make a profit on when they send the boards to the smelter

So (as example) if a board buyer pays $28 per pound for RAM they pay that price because when they send a simi lode &/or shipping container of RAM to the smelter - they know that the PMs the smelter pays them on will "net" them a profit

Now - does that mean that every RAM stick has the exact same value - of course not - it means they have done enough assays on LARGE lots of RAM to KNOW that they will net a profit on the purchase price they pay for RAM

There is enough of a mix even in even a 100 pound of RAM for this "profit" factor (something great then purchase price) to hold true

Kurt

Watch for news from the Royal Mint in the UK regarding buying e-scrap. They've licensed a novel process from a Canadian partner that is very interesting.

 

[kurtak]

Watch for news from the Royal Mint in the UK regarding buying e-scrap. They've licensed a novel process from a Canadian partner that is very interesting.

This is actually "somewhat" old news

I read an article (over a year ago) wherein the UK (government/Royal Mint) was looking into &/or planning to get into E-waste recycling for the PM values

So it does not surprise me that they now intend to fully implementing it

Which in turn wont surprise me if they enact laws that require that all E-waste in the UK "most" go through them

In other words; - you can be a collector - but processing must go through us - even overseas shipment for processing

I could be wrong - so please keep us informed (links to news)

Kurt

 

[BShan]

I have received nothing. Never really expected him to. I have been in a setup before and this is certainly beginning to smell like one.

I think Pou will be able to purchase and send you appropriate labels once the material is boxed up into the boxes that will be shipped. The shipper that Pou uses will want to know the dimensions of each box, and weight of each box, before Pou can purchase labels. Besides the obvious to/from addresses, and claimed value (which is NOT shipping insurance).

Doing it this way is I think safer for all, because Pou would have full control over choosing the correct shipper, shipping product, and add-on options like insurance, and choosing the appropriate value claim for the material being shipped, and you would not need to wait for reimbursement for a service that you will have already paid for, and would be paid for anyways, by Pou. I feel like this would be in the interest of both of you, and would also lessen the risk for both of you. You don't have to worry that Pou may not reimburse you, and Pou will have the chance to see that the boxes and weights make sense before purchasing and sending you the shipping labels.

I believe in my heart that there's nothing missing from the materials, and that Pou will reimburse you. But if something can be done in a way that is protective of both of you, it can't hurt!

 

[4metals]

Per the bold print; - yes - the prices LARGE board buyers pay is based entirely on the recovery values of the PMs (Au/Pd/Ag/Cu) in the various "categories" of boards

Just to be clear, the shops I am talking about were the end refiner even though they are "small shops". They have a pick up circuit established where they collect e-scrap, most of which they get paid nominally to take away. If it was all computer scrap they expect 300 pounds of circuit boards out of a ton incoming. The ton I spoke of processing is strictly the circuitry after everything else is separated for recycle. But they also stripped circuitry out of ovens and toasters and televisions. Their only definition for what it is they refine was circuit boards and it was strictly by pounds. So they don't even track which circuit and which chip, just tons per week.

That said, the hardest part of the business was the collection of the material and getting it to the refinery. Disassembly is 100% manual labor (at Mexican labor rates) and one worker can disassemble about 1 ton a day coming in. The rest is routine, pyrolysis, smelting, and copper cells. And of course the happy times when the slimes are collected and refined.

All they tracked were tons of circuits in and ounces of gold out ( 3-8 oz/ton) (silver too, 15 - 20 oz/ton) and of course copper (up to 500 pounds per ton of boards).

Possibly if they were to separate every circuit by type and process them separately the oz/ton numbers could climb for some feeds but in the long run they see it all as value so it gets lumped in together. One owner told me, after too many tequilas and some excellent fresh ceviche that the pick up fees and selling the copper covered his overhead. No wonder he drank top shelf tequila!

 

[kurtak]

Just to be clear, the shops I am talking about were the end refiner even though they are "small shops". They have a pick up circuit established where they collect e-scrap, most of which they get paid nominally to take away. If it was all computer scrap they expect 300 pounds of circuit boards out of a ton incoming. The ton I spoke of processing is strictly the circuitry after everything else is separated for recycle. But they also stripped circuitry out of ovens and toasters and televisions. Their only definition for what it is they refine was circuit boards and it was strictly by pounds. So they don't even track which circuit and which chip, just tons per week.

That said, the hardest part of the business was the collection of the material and getting it to the refinery. Disassembly is 100% manual labor (at Mexican labor rates) and one worker can disassemble about 1 ton a day coming in. The rest is routine, pyrolysis, smelting, and copper cells. And of course the happy times when the slimes are collected and refined.

All they tracked were tons of circuits in and ounces of gold out ( 3-8 oz/ton) (silver too, 15 - 20 oz/ton) and of course copper (up to 500 pounds per ton of boards).

Possibly if they were to separate every circuit by type and process them separately the oz/ton numbers could climb for some feeds but in the long run they see it all as value so it gets lumped in together. One owner told me, after too many tequilas and some excellent fresh ceviche that the pick up fees and selling the copper covered his overhead. No wonder he drank top shelf tequila!

This part of the discussion in this thread should be slit off to it's own thread/discussion as it could be an interesting discussion

Not sure what to title the thread - maybe - Selling CBs - vs - Processing CBs

Kurt

 

[kurtak]

Just curious if PouDouche ever supplied prepaid shipping labels he was supposed to, or if he expects you to pay to return his unsolicited material?

I have received nothing. Never really expected him to. I have been in a setup before and this is certainly beginning to smell like one.

It is NOT that simple - Ludo can not just go & get "random" shipping labels to send to Geo for return shipping

Ludo tried to explain that when Geo said --------

I told you I could not do the refine and asked for shipping labels to send the material back. You needed some very specific information. Such as weights of the different material. This you should have had as you are the one who sent it to begin with and have been kind enough to post it a couple of times on the forum. Add the weights together and send a label for that much. Brake it down into as many as you need to, to equal that amount. I would send you your material.

To which Ludo said -----

6-Can you ship back the materials COD so i Can pay for the shipping when i received it because to get a label they are asking some specific questions , or can can you make only one or 2 boxes and send send sizes and weight

Per the bold print - in other words - Ludo went & tried to get shipping labels - but the postal service needs specific information about size/weight of the packages before the postal service will sell Ludo the shipping labels --- so Geo needs to do his part & provide Ludo with that info BEFORE Ludo can go get shipping labels to send to Geo

The info that the postal service is asking for (size/weight of package) needs to be exact so the label(s) match the package(s) exactly --- only Geo can provide that info

I also tried to explain this ------

unless the materials are boxed exactly as you received them (included being unopened) & no boards have been shifted from one box to another or in some other way altered from it's original shipping then there is no way for pourdouche to get return shipping labels to send to you

You have to weigh each box you intend to send - give those weights for each box so that poudouche can get a label for each specific box

In other words - he can't just send "a label" for the total weight as everything will likely not all fit in one box nor can he send random (weight) labels as you would then have to try to (re)box things to match exactly the label weights

The information poudouche is asking for is information he needs in order to get the "proper" labels to send to you

BShan has now also tried to explain this -------

I think Pou will be able to purchase and send you appropriate labels once the material is boxed up into the boxes that will be shipped. The shipper that Pou uses will want to know the dimensions of each box, and weight of each box, before Pou can purchase labels. Besides the obvious to/from addresses, and claimed value (which is NOT shipping insurance).

Per the bold print - until Geo does his part to provide Ludo with that info - Ludo can not go get the labels to send to Geo because the postal service (which ever service it may be) will not sell random labels - they (postal service) want exact per package info (if the package weighs 10 pound 6 ounces you need a label for 10 pounds 6 ounces - not a label for 10 -pounds)

If you ship in the "send anything" boxes - then you only need the "box sizes" (small/medium/large) & the number of them

Kurt

 

[poudouche]

this part is so simple
number of boxes
sizes and weight
from there i can get the labels

 

[Geo]

Kurt, I am compelled to ask you what is to gain from your unending attack on my character. Is there some monetary gain for you or are you doing this out of spite? You have no right what so ever to speak to me as though I am mentally challenged. Are you jealous of my popularity or does my intellect threaten you in some way? Either way, you should leave me and my business to myself and whomever I happen to be dealing with and stay in your own lane.
I am officially asking for any admin that sees this to take all appropriate steps at your disposal to stop this obvious attack on my character, please. I've done nothing to warrant this type of harassment from another member.
Why do I feel as if it were any other member, Kurtak would have already been ordered to stop this unwarranted attack on me or face sanctions of some kind from the forum? Can he really continue this continued attack of my character unimpeded? When is enough truly enough? This is not assumption and he said vs he said. It is all here in black and white. He is the one speaking untruths and trying to tarnish my image. Must I keep having having to explain my actions (or lack thereof) to someone who has absolutely no bearing or say-so in the matter either way. I will be sending PM's to admin with the same request. These unwarranted attacks against me must stop.

 

[FrugalRefiner]

I am asking, no, telling EVERYONE to STOP this back and forth! I don't like locking threads, but at this point, I will if there are any further comments from anyone but Geo and poudouche. I want to leave the thread unlocked so these two can use it to communicate to the rest of us the progress toward a resolution.

Geo, I really don't see anything in Kurt's last post that is attacking your character. I understand you may feel that way after all that has been said in this thread, but I just don't see it. The way to end this is just to get poudouche' stuff sent back. I have offered multiple times to pay the shipping costs. Just box it up and ship it.

Dave

 

[Geo]

Ludo has informed me that he will reimburse me on the shipping cost. Nothing else needs to be added.

 

[poudouche]

Hi Geo
I will reimburse you for any expenses you incur
let finish with this matter
poudouche

 

[urachoch]

I've been a member for I think 10 yrs. This might be my first post. I'd like to add a impartial view. I don't know either side of this charade personally or at all for that matter. I have however followed this thread in its entirety for a couple weeks now.

It appears that many people respect Geo and have done business with him. It also appears he is very knowledgable in his field. He understandably has a lot going on in his life currently it seems.

I'm assuming in Geo's field he has shipped stuff before. If that is the case all his shipping demands are highly unreasonable and just plain spiteful. If he has not shipped a package before then I can understand.

Being irritated or mad at someone does not give anyone the right to withhold someones property. That is actually illegal. I'd call the police and report the stuff stolen. I imagine it will show back up on your doorstep pretty quickly Pou.

It will only take a short time to pack and ship the items.
My question is. Is your time more valuable than your reputation? If so then pay someone to pack and ship. Many business out there doing that now a days.