HYDRA SIEGE Project

I was thinking how to collect, keep and record all yield data of all types of tested components in one place, made of experienced (registered) users willing to share it, with ability to post/share yield data, so all regular (unregistered) users could see that data in real time.

When i say "registered"/"unregistered" users i am not thinking about GRF registered/unregistered users, i have something else on mind. This is where things are getting complicated...i will try to explain best i can. If you don't understand some part, please ask.

I am having idea to build Windows application which i gave name HYDRA SIEGE Project. I could make it to be a separate application or i could implement it to my already existing application related to calculating gold content in computer gold bearing components (link: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=24823).

HYDRA SIEGE Project or H.Y.D.R.A S.I.E.G.E refers to Hardware Yields, Data, Reports, Analysis and Sharing Information about Extracting Gold from Electronics.

First i would make online database with which application Hydra Siege will communicate, and where all yield data would be saved. All regular "unregistered" users could use the application and see that yield data with no ability to add their data. The reason of restricting anyone posting yield data is to avoid not experienced users data, intentionally posting of false data, and similar reasons.

Registered user could be any well known experienced member, willing to share their results. I think it will not be problem choosing such a members, there are plenty of them here. This is how they will get ability to add yield data... I will include encrypted username and password needed for posting on online database from inside of application, but it will be triggered only if you enter certain keys. I will make a plenty of these keys, so if anyone interested, i will post them key in PM. When user open application and insert the key he will become "registered" user and he will have ability to add yield data. In a metter of seconds all people having this app will retrieve this information about yield data.

This is just explanation how it works, in reality it is not complicated. When application is opened, all of the types of gold bearing components will be well arranged in table and besides you will see different yield data from various users (included who posted which data). This is core of the application, if this is done, it is easy for me to make calculations of middle values, etc.

This is just idea i wanted to share with you, what are you thinking about it, is it worth making such application?

That sounds like a great idea

Wonderful Idea. It would definitely cut out the guess work for many of us..

Tndavid said:

Wonderful Idea. It would definitely cut out the guess work for many of us..

Click to expand...

Impster said:

That sounds like a great idea

Click to expand...

Thank you for support, i was working on application with Ken (jeneje) and it will be finished soon. All members of GRF and RPM will be able to have it for free. Here is some pictures.

That looks awesome Tzoax

Alexander,
These software projects of yours look great.
Hope you complete them soon.
I like the other classic looking one with Hokes book, hows that coming along or is it toast?

Topher_osAUrus said:

That looks awesome Tzoax

Click to expand...

Thank you Topher!
I believe it will be a great source of reliable data yields. Today i will talk with Ken and we will test this final version of application. If everything is ok we will start to offer experienced members to participate by adding their data. When a member accept it, he will become level 2 user of application and he will have abbility to add their data. This is a brief description of app:

REGISTRATION AND LOGIN
==================================================================================================
Click at "Check Connection" button to check connection between database server and your PC. If it is ok you can continue.

To Register click at "Sign Up" button and enter your username, email address and password.
When you click at "Register" button 8-digit code will be sent to your email address. Write this code into required field and after that you will be registered user. You will receive email message with your username and password.

To login add your username and password on a main screen textboxes and click Login. If everything is ok a new window will appear and you will be logged in.
==================================================================================================



LEVELS
=================================================================================================
There are 3 levels of users - regular users, superusers and admin users.
All new registrated users will be level 1 by default.

Level 1 users or regular users have abbility to browse and download PDF data yield files.
All new users will have 2 downloads for free.

Level 2 or superuser accounts are users that have abbility to add their own data into database.
Every time superusers add their data to database they will be rewarded with 1 free download.

Level 3 or admin users have abbility to manage accounts, validate new PDF data reports from level 2 users, and change levels of users.
All users with level 2 will be well known/experienced members of GRF/RPM websites.

==================================================================================================



BROWSING AND DOWNLOADING DATA YIELD PDF FILES
==================================================================================================
After you login click at "Search Database" button. Click at dropdown list beneath title "Browse All Data Yields".
When you click at any item of that list details will show up such as author, category, process etc.
Also "Download Report" button will appear.
On a right side of window you will see "Free downloads left" title with number of your free downloads.
After browsing for report you are interested about click at "Download Report" button and wait until it is downloaded.
After it is downloaded you will see message where the PDF file is stored (it will be stored in your working directory of application usually at Program files folder) and PDF file will be opened automatically. (You must have PDF Reader installed on your PC to be able to open PDF files)

When you download all of your free downloads you will be able to purchase next one, you will be redirected to paypal, and after you pay you will receive PDF file on your email address within 24 hours.
==================================================================================================


HOW IT WORKS
==================================================================================================
All data yields that superusers add are stored into secured database server.
The application is connected with that database.
When new users are registered they have abbility to retrieve data from that server.
In other words, once you have this application installed and you are registered, every time new data yield is added by any of the superusers, you will instantly see that data when you browse data yields, like all of the other registred users.
==================================================================================================


BENEFITS
==================================================================================================
-All data yields will be on one place
-It will be a huge database eventually
-Only experienced and well known users will have abbility to add their data yields
-it is very easy and safe way to find any data yield from experienced members
==================================================================================================

adam mizer said:

Alexander,
These software projects of yours look great.
Hope you complete them soon.
I like the other classic looking one with Hokes book, hows that coming along or is it toast?

Click to expand...

Thank you Adam!

I just finished that classic app. You can download it here (including prerequisites):
http://www.mediafire.com/file/0cithudb05tn9bk/Gold_Refining_Book_Classic.rar

If you already have IE11 and .NET installed you can download just application installer here:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/vk7v2d71i6vws2z/Gold_Refining_Book_Classic.msi

Now everything should work fine.
If you need any modification i will change it for you it and send you a link.

You said on the start of this thread that "All regular "unregistered" users could use the application and see that yield data with no ability to add their data."
If that is still the case and anyone can see data they are looking for then what warrant charging money for download - or better said why would anyone pay anything for something they can see anyway. Or it is rather that users will not be able to see that yield report unless they download that particular file they are looking for.
That lead to another issue - if someone decide to share and upload his yield report who is going to be credited for paid downloads of report he provided?
I do understand that nothing comes free in the life but as it happens forum is stuffed with yield reports already. Yes it take quite some time to find all of it and perhaps you could be credited in some way if you spend time to localize and list all of them in a database. Small sign up charge as reward for your troubles would be much better option than what is being proposed now.

patnor1011 said:

You said on the start of this thread that "All regular "unregistered" users could use the application and see that yield data with no ability to add their data."
If that is still the case and anyone can see data they are looking for then what warrant charging money for download - or better said why would anyone pay anything for something they can see anyway. Or it is rather that users will not be able to see that yield report unless they download that particular file they are looking for.
That lead to another issue - if someone decide to share and upload his yield report who is going to be credited for paid downloads of report he provided?
I do understand that nothing comes free in the life but as it happens forum is stuffed with yield reports already. Yes it take quite some time to find all of it and perhaps you could be credited in some way if you spend time to localize and list all of them in a database. Small sign up charge as reward for your troubles would be much better option than what is being proposed now.

Click to expand...

Hi Pat. Thank you for asking, i will explain you everything now.
I was building this application last 2 months, and yesterday i finally finished it. Now the application could be downloaded and used, but there are no data to see, database is empty since now is the time for next phase-populating database with yields.

When application starts all users have to register to be able to login and use the application. When users registers they are by default regular users. All of the new users could download 2 PDF documents for free. If users are willing to share their data i could change their level 1 (regular user) to level 2 (superuser), and when i do that, next time they open their application they will have ability to use "Add Your Data" button. When they add their data they will be rewarded with 1 free download, so the rate is 1:1, for every yield that people are sharing they could download one for free. But those users have to be a members that have some experience in gold refining, so that way all data will be more confident.

Yes, there are plenty of data already there, and there are a lot of partly finished or bad data there, even false data. This way, all of the reliable data will be on one place, everybody will see who is author, and there are lot of other details too - description of process used and description of material for example. I made that application would build 3 pages PDF file based on that data (take a look at picture above - Add Your Data), people could even compare for example same material processed by different process, by different users, and there are also Ag, Pd and Pt yields. There are also categories for all gold bearing materials - carat scrap (bench sweeps, polishing waste), computer scrap, medical scrap, tv scrap, monitor scrap, satellite, cellphones, military scrap etc.

My first post on this thread was just idea. Some things are maybe different now but the main goal is achieved. I couldn't done it by myself. Thats why i made this application together with Ken (jeneje).
Ken provided server to be used for database so without it, it wouldn't be possible to make application like this. This application requires online access to database so when any user add their data (through the application) all of the users around the world will instantly see that data description (inside of their application) and be able to download it.

Answers:

"Why would anyone pay anything for something they can see anyway."
Because this way people will get detailed PDF document (3 pages with pictures) about specific material from safe source (well known, experienced refiners), because it is fast, and when database grows it will become great place to find any yield of anything. The main difference is that anybody could add any data anywhere, for example if somebody claims that he recovered 1 gram of gold from pentium pro processor and they give that data to forum it will stay there and many people who are not familiar with gold recovery would see that data and many of them will consider it is true data, but it isn't. That's why this is a better way, data collected this way will be far more reliable than all of the data that already exists, big part of that data are just assumption, or not done completely, or have lack of process used etc.
But, that was just a first level of security. Second level is that when users add their data, before that data goes to database it will have to be verified by administrators. That way all of the type errors and other issues could be resolved before publishing it.
Next security level is managing accounts, deleting users, making blacklist, changing permission levels etc. This way the whole system is even more secured.

"If someone decide to share and upload his yield report who is going to be credited for paid downloads of report he provided?"
If you add one data yield, you will be rewarded with one free data yield download. And people who eventually pay money for that data yield will pay to account of people who owns this application, in this case Ken and me. I think it is fair enough, but we will see how things are going to go work out.

"Small sign up charge as reward for your troubles would be much better option than what is being proposed now"
Yes, i guess that it would be fair enough if i made simple offline application. This way somebody have to pay for server lease (about 70$ per month), somebody have to check every few hours for verifications, sending ordered PDF files, maintaining database, updating and making improvements to application, security issues etc. It takes couple of hours daily. So, i am not doing this for money, i would be happy if i could earn this way but even if i don't i will try to keep it going altogether with Ken because we believe that this could be very good source of data yields.

Since application is finished now, i invite you to contribute and check application, if you are willing to contribute register and let me know, i will change your level to superuser and you could add your data to database, especially ic chips yields in which processing you are one of the best ic chip refiner and tester on GRF. All of the experienced members are invited to contribute.

Alexander

Seems like an extremely expensive server at $70 per month.
http://www.whoishostingthis.com/compare/

I just bought a new server for my wiki and my other five websites, it cost me $300 and some parts I got via scrapping. Running costs will be around $20 per year and site, including domain name costs.
And the yield data is free for anyone to see and it links directly to the post on GRF and the author with the following discussion directly. If someone is claiming 1g Au per PPro then there will be a post quite soon after calling it bogus.
http://goldrefiningwiki.com/mediawiki/index.php/Yield_numbers

Personally I don't like "pay for view" sites so I'm not going to contribute to your project.

Göran

g_axelsson said:

Seems like an extremely expensive server at $70 per month.

Click to expand...

I have to agree with Göran on this.

Dave

g_axelsson said:

Seems like an extremely expensive server at $70 per month.

Click to expand...

Not really, the server is through Codero hosting and it is a dedicated server with 20 terabytes of space, and the cost is $75.55 per month. Hello everybody, I am back! :lol: You can get shared hosting from a lot of places, but you are limited to the amount of space you use and the traffic that uses your site or APP. Since I have a dedicated server that is not an issue.

Ken

g_axelsson said:

Seems like an extremely expensive server at $70 per month.
http://www.whoishostingthis.com/compare/

I just bought a new server for my wiki and my other five websites, it cost me $300 and some parts I got via scrapping. Running costs will be around $20 per year and site, including domain name costs.
And the yield data is free for anyone to see and it links directly to the post on GRF and the author with the following discussion directly. If someone is claiming 1g Au per PPro then there will be a post quite soon after calling it bogus.
http://goldrefiningwiki.com/mediawiki/index.php/Yield_numbers

Personally I don't like "pay for view" sites so I'm not going to contribute to your project.

Göran

Click to expand...

Thank you Göran, but this is not website, and people are not "pay for view" here, this is Windows application integrated with server database, and people could "pay for downloading PDF document with pictures and detailed description of process, material etc" and people who gives their data yields could download data for free. And there are less and more expensive servers, based on many factors, i could even make server runs from my home for free but it would be not secured well and it would be much slower than like this. But, anyway, i like to make applications and even if all of this was a bad idea i am not regretting for making it. I still believe that paying for complete, reliable, detailed PDF document is better for some people than chasing links and incomplete descriptions of process used scattered all around. Thank you Göran, i respect your opinion, and how you know mine.

FrugalRefiner said:

g_axelsson said:

Seems like an extremely expensive server at $70 per month.

Click to expand...

I have to agree with Göran on this.

Dave

Click to expand...

Thank you Dave, i am not paying for server, Ken is paying.

So the quoted server cost is for the RPM forum server and not dedicated for this project. Is it the same about the workload? A couple of hours daily just to keep this project running or is that spent on running the RPM forum?

Making programs just for fun I understand, been there, done that. But it seems like a very large program to keep track of a few numbers.

If it is a program instead of a website it's still paying for viewing. Even worse if it's a program since it locks out anyone not running windows.

Then there is the security issue, I bet many are nervous to run unknown software on their computers. I'm always wary that I might install software infected with viruses. I'm not accusing you, but how do I know that your computer isn't infected? A website doesn't have that problem unless you add a lot of extras like flash animations.
I might be overanxious about computer security, but then it's almost 20 years since I last saw a virus on one of my machines, a word macro virus brought home by my girlfriend without knowing it.

I agree that there is a problem with descriptions scattered all over the place, that was the driving force behind me starting the wiki. I'm writing short descriptions and put links to relevant threads just so people wouldn't need to do a lot of searches. I was hoping for others who would help out with it, but so far it's been a solo project.

Göran

g_axelsson said:

I was hoping for others who would help out with it, but so far it's been a solo project

Click to expand...

Sorry to hear that !

I got some wiki experience, but hardly any recovery/refining experience.

Is there something i could do to help with the wiki ?

Edit to add:-
Seems that there are some red links i could turn blue.

How do i get a wiki editing account ?

Final edit:
found it, and will add/edit some stuff.

aga said:

g_axelsson said:

I was hoping for others who would help out with it, but so far it's been a solo project

Click to expand...

Sorry to hear that !

I got some wiki experience, but hardly any recovery/refining experience.

Is there something i could do to help with the wiki ?

Click to expand...

Sure, speling cheak for example. English isn't my first language and I'm afraid it shows in my writing. :mrgreen:

But I'm sure that there is a lot you can contribute with.

I'm not that experienced in refining either so I have to study a lot. I do a lot of searches on the forum to find good threads, both as a source of my writing and to link to. There are a lot of general information and chemistry that should be added to the wiki too but I haven't had time yet, one article at the time.
For example, look at bromate hydrolysis, I've never done anything like that but I studied it a lot and I wrote an article about it. If there is something wrong I hope someone will correct it in the future.

Yesterday I wrote about hydrochloric acid and now I'm doing research for iridium. If you see something that is missing or just needs a bit of polish and you think you can contribute, don't be shy. It's a wiki and it can always be reverted back to a previous edit.

Every project has to acquire a certain mass before it starts moving by itself, I just misjudged the tipping point. Some day it will get there.

Göran

Maybe building it, instead of in .net, mysql with a php or java front end so it's web based and available cross platform so non-windows users like me don't have to run a virtal machine to use it? Great idea, though! Wouldn't it also be more scalable at that point as well?

g_axelsson said:

So the quoted server cost is for the RPM forum server and not dedicated for this project. Is it the same about the workload? A couple of hours daily just to keep this project running or is that spent on running the RPM forum?
Göran

Click to expand...

No, that means that application is connected with powerful server that could provide secure, fast and reliable connection and data transfer, with no restrictions. And few hours of my work daily on application and server is dedicated to this project. RPM website is working on the same server but it surely will not affect to quality of connection and transfer rate, the server is more than powerful enough for all of those tasks. Maybe you personally don't like that application database will be on the same server where Refinement Of Precious Metals website is hosted? I don't see any other reason why this could be a problem. Powerful server is provided, it is working quite well and even it has 100 more websites on it, it would still working very good.

g_axelsson said:

Making programs just for fun I understand, been there, done that. But it seems like a very large program to keep track of a few numbers.
Göran

Click to expand...

The application is about 6 Megabytes, it is exactly 5,772KB. The big part of that 6MB are pictures i used for application design, then there are window forms and thousands of lines inside of the code and itext dll files required for building PDF documents. I marked it for you on this picture.
The application is far more powerful then track of few numbers.

g_axelsson said:

If it is a program instead of a website it's still paying for viewing. Even worse if it's a program since it locks out anyone not running windows.
Göran

Click to expand...

No, when someone pays for PDF document he will receive PDF document on their email, not just to view "few numbers". He will recieve full, detailed report about data yield of desired material.
It is for Windows because i am making applications for Windows platforms. And Windows is still most used operating system.

g_axelsson said:

Then there is the security issue, I bet many are nervous to run unknown software on their computers. I'm always wary that I might install software infected with viruses. I'm not accusing you, but how do I know that your computer isn't infected? A website doesn't have that problem unless you add a lot of extras like flash animations.
I might be overanxious about computer security, but then it's almost 20 years since I last saw a virus on one of my machines, a word macro virus brought home by my girlfriend without knowing it.
Göran

Click to expand...

I just scanned it for viruses on totalvirus website and here is the picture with results.


I made this application and i know that it have no virus. No one have to believe me but i dare anyone to prove me anyhow that virus is in my application. Not any of antiviruses will detect it because there isn't virus. That is a sure way you could believe me on this one.

g_axelsson said:

I agree that there is a problem with descriptions scattered all over the place, that was the driving force behind me starting the wiki. I'm writing short descriptions and put links to relevant threads just so people wouldn't need to do a lot of searches. I was hoping for others who would help out with it, but so far it's been a solo project.
Göran

Click to expand...

That way you are saving time of people finding threads of all kind of posts containing yields. They will still have to do lot of reading through the posts to see all of the details, pictures etc (if they find it all there).

When the users of Hydra Siege starts the application they can browse data yields and when they pick one they will get concrete report of that data yield inside of PDF document containing pictures, all details and of course author/person who made that test.

I think there is a big difference between those two approaches.

But, after all thats why users will have 2 free downloads so they could try it first, they will see how it looks like and they will choose will they buy a next report or not. It is not about your or mine opinion. You haven't even tried the application and you are finding all possible ways to prove that there are much of problems there but in reality the application works brilliant and i will gladly answer to all of your questions because if not for any other reason, just because you have "been there, done that" where you "think" i am now.

Auful said:

Maybe building it, instead of in .net, mysql with a php or java front end so it's web based and available cross platform so non-windows users like me don't have to run a virtal machine to use it? Great idea, though! Wouldn't it also be more scalable at that point as well?

Click to expand...

Yes, that way it would not be depending by operating system. But, i am making programs only in .NET.

Tzoax said:

"Why would anyone pay anything for something they can see anyway."
Because this way people will get detailed PDF document (3 pages with pictures) about specific material from safe source (well known, experienced refiners), because it is fast, and when database grows it will become great place to find any yield of anything.

Click to expand...

I understand however this way it look appealing mainly for people who suddenly got interested in refining and want to figure out what is worth doing and what not. But then you know very well as you did quite a lot of IC yourself that there are many hundreds of different types of IC, pins, boards.... It will become cost prohibitive even for newbies and lazy people to buy and get reports for most of what is in there. It is quite obvious to anybody that when you start looking into things in more detailed way you will be overwhelmed with amount of data available.

Tzoax said:

"If someone decide to share and upload his yield report who is going to be credited for paid downloads of report he provided?"
If you add one data yield, you will be rewarded with one free data yield download. And people who eventually pay money for that data yield will pay to account of people who owns this application, in this case Ken and me. I think it is fair enough, but we will see how things are going to go work out.

Click to expand...

I respectfully disagree that this is a fair deal. I understand that you do have cost associated with creating and running this application however from perspective of contributor I struggle to see any fairness in this. You reward contributor with once off sort of quid pro quo payment but then all potential revenue (which will be) created is lost to the original contributor.
Let me give you example based on my own experience.
My first ebook was uploaded on forum in 2011. In about a year it got over 10k downloads. I do not know exact number but it was anything between 10-15k if I remember correctly. I took it off for a brief period in 2012 but then decided to post it again here and to many more places just to prevent possibility that someone will be getting financial gain out of selling it (yes that happened). From 2012 when more people started using this method and now youtube and net is quite full of it, it still managed to get downloaded another 2765 times. And that is despite that it was published and spread out on quite a lot of another websites as I already mentioned. What if I decided to sell it for just 1$? Of course not everyone would buy it but simple math will show what that numbers could be if 50%, 30%, 25%, 10% or even just 1% would pay to get it.
Now compare surrendering this, to gain just one similar ebook.

To summarize my thinking I applaud effort you put into this but current structure is favorable only to you and Ken and there is pretty much nothing to be gained to potential contributors. On the contrary they will be losing on this deal. As for the users they may benefit from using it (mainly new inexperienced or lazy ones) but lack of contributors will restrict any revenue possibility for you and Ken.